2f better than 3f in flintlock

Old Salt said:

flintlock62 said:

Pletch: Can't wait to hear about the c02 test to see if BP WILL in fact fire without the presesnce of oxygen.

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:wink: Does anyone else find this odd? What does the O in CO2 indicate? Where does the O in saltpeter go during the test?

If the C is carbon and the O is oxygen aren't you just adding more of the same ingredients to the BP mixture?

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C02 is two oxygen atoms and bonded by one carbon atom. It will not support combustion. That's why some fire extenguishers use it. C02 is heavier than air, so it will displace the lighter oxyen.
Plants abosorb c02, collects the carbon atom, and releases the two oxygen atoms back into the atmosphere.

I believe if you instead of crushing the powder together you pack the power with less pressure leaving ( however small the grandular size are)some air spaces in between the grains will allow the fire from the ignition to be faster and more effiencent . I agree that there is oxygen in the nitrite I agree that blackpowder will burn in a confined space (dynamite)All that is a given I am not unfamilar with blackpowder workings .

So to Pletch think about instead of add CO2 just fire the powder with a loose compaction then a compressed one and measure the reaction time of the complete ignition from the start to finish measuring the duration of the burn. the faster the burn the more efficient the burn :hmm:

:thumbsup: OK I should have known that coming from the Navy and learning about the fire triangle.

Part of the function of a CO2 fire extinguisher is the cold temperature. Will you have to account for lower temps during your test?

I could be corrected on this, but it is HEAT, not oxygen, that starts AND concludes the combustion process of black powder. And just so you know, dynamite does not contain black powder.

the faster the burn the more efficient the burn

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This is one of the statements that are made with no measurable parameters to substantiate it. Why? If by “efficient” you mean production without waste, why does it mean the faster one is so. This is an interesting thread, the way they should be.

you might be right but I though that TNT did not use blackpowder and dynamite did. TNT used a nitro mixture :wink:

alabamaboy said:

. . . .
So to Pletch think about instead of add CO2 just fire the powder with a loose compaction then a compressed one and measure the reaction time of the complete ignition from the start to finish measuring the duration of the burn. the faster the burn the more efficient the burn :hmm:

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Actually, we answered that question in the summer of 2007. Our goal was to evaluate the effect of compression on flintlocks by looking at velocities and the group sizes. We made the determination before starting that uniform velocities and tighter groups would be our way to answer the question.

The result was that the tightest flintlock group was shot with 3/16" compression.
1. no compression ----.92" group
2. 1/16" comp.--------.84"
3. 1/8" comp.--------.85"
4. 3/16" comp.--------.46"

These were 5 shot groups shot off the bench at 25 yds. Below is a link to a write-up of the experiment.

Load Compression and Accuracy

I suspect that from your point of view, the flaw is that we did not test ignition speed. Our thinking was that if we got uniform velocities and tighter groups, then uniform ignition speed was a given.

Regards,
Pletch

alabamaboy said:

you might be right but I though that TNT did not use blackpowder and dynamite did. TNT used a nitro mixture :wink:

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Dynamite is nitroglycrin, soaked in an absorbant material to make it stable enough to handle safely. We used to blow tree stumps with it on the farm.

Old Salt said:

:thumbsup:
Part of the function of a CO2 fire extinguisher is the cold temperature. Will you have to account for lower temps during your test?

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I don't think we will. We'll bleed the CO2 in slowly, and by the time we go through the loading process, my gut says the temps will moderate. I believe that the "cold" is caused by releasing a gas at high pressure into a lower pressure. IIRC it's a Boyles / Charles law thing from science.

Regards,
Pletch

Pletch said:

Old Salt said:

:thumbsup:
Part of the function of a CO2 fire extinguisher is the cold temperature. Will you have to account for lower temps during your test?

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I don't think we will. We'll bleed the CO2 in slowly, and by the time we go through the loading process, my gut says the temps will moderate. I believe that the "cold" is caused by releasing a gas at high pressure into a lower pressure. IIRC it's a Boyles / Charles law thing from science.

Regards,
Pletch

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Hey Pletch,

Check out Ohio Ramrod's CO2 source in this thread. It would appear to be a great source for you, with none of the yammering about temperatures. :thumbsup:

Ok,Pletch I'll go along with those figures Thanks for your input and your interest in this thread. :thumbsup:

Today I broke open my first can ever of 3f to give it a shot and see if it shot any better then 2f. Today I hit my first 100 yard ten ring.. This is my third pound of bp I have ever shot may be Im just gettin better :thumbsup:

Here is what I have noticed about the guys who shoot 3f, is it is not for accuracy or speed of ignition but the not having to carry multiple powders. They just use both for main charge and pan. to each there own but the one time I ran out of 4f at the range and used a pan charge of 2f and it went off just fine just a lot more smoke in the face than with the 4f and thats it.

As far as accuracy with Goex I get better with 90g of 3f than i do Goex 2f. But my most consistent comes from Swiss 2f. But then the nice thing about swiss powders is the .5 increments, a little more ability to fine tune and I like that. Even though there is only one store that carries Swiss near me, and they are usually out of what I want. But I get it when I can.

I thought I remember reading somewhere on here that the goex 3f was similar to swiss 2f and that it had something to do with the "screens used in the manufacturer". I'm not debating best manufacturer, just when I read this, thought it warranted trying 3f because I havent found a swiss dealer in my area of PA. Either way that 10 ring shot gives me a thirst for more. I 've only been shooting BP a short time and its turning into an addiction. I think I will have to go to dixons gun fair this spring and learn a little more. I think I want to build a Bucks County Poor Boy Rifle. My wife says I need an intervention :hmm:

Dynamite is nitroglycrin, soaked in an absorbant material to make it stable enough to handle safely. We used to blow tree stumps with it on the farm.[/quote]

Hmmm, interesting. We use to blow stumps with the same thing we were drinking from the jug. :rotf:

All seriousness aside, am I the only one who just rams in powder and ball and pulls the trigger? I do have definite opinions, which I've stated earlier, but in the end does it really matter all that much? I consider the subject to be esoteric, scientific, beyond our needs, interesting and why not know? And yes, I look forward to reading about Pletch's experiment with CO2.

Load, prime, shoot. Repeat. It is simple.

alabamaboy said:

then why the do we poke a flash channel in the powder there should not be a need for that :v

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I have shot a flintlock since the mid 1960s and I don't even have a nipple pick in my hunting pouches.
I almost never use one and if I do I use a dried grass stalk or cut one from a twig.

This is FFF Swiss.
Note how close the powder is to the pan.


Same here. But harder to see.


Dan

Here is what I have noticed about the guys who shoot 3f, is it is not for accuracy or speed of ignition but the not having to carry multiple powders. They just use both for main charge and pan. to each there own but the one time I ran out of 4f at the range and used a pan charge of 2f and it went off just fine just a lot more smoke in the face than with the 4f and thats it.

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I beg to differ. This guy uses 3F for accuracy first and for most. I use it to prime because I've never seen 4F and 3F has proved to be just fine for me as a prime.

Pletch said:

flintlock62 said:

I'd like to see the same test WITH powder and ball. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Sorry Pletch, Just had to throw that one in there!

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If I do that I best move the camera!
Pletch

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You could use a mirror at a 45 degree angle!

Picking the vent provides a tunnel so that the heat of the flash can penetrate farther into the powder and get the show on the road. During all of this time vast quantities of oxygen are being released by the effect of the heat on the saltpeter and the fact that oxygen is also present in the air becomes a moot point. The possibility that the more open matrix allowed by the larger granules could allow the heat to travel more quickly would make an interesting study but i think that electronic timing apparatus would be required to find any measurable differences.