Primer for Cambela rifle

I was e-mailed some pictures of the rifle & a diagram of the capping/priming system he has.
I'm guessing either #209 shotgun primers or flanged musket caps are what he needs, but I don't have dimensions for them so I'm posting his pictures here in the hope someone will recognize the equipment.
I guess this is traditional enough for the site as it's not an inline system???

Rifle's nipple assembled & ready to fire.

Is that hole just below & in front of the nipple in the rifle normal? What the heck does it do?

Pictures & cross section of nipple adapter setup he has.


another of the rifle's breech & lock mechanism.


There are some more pictures as well but I guess these will ID the setup?

My guess would be a 209 since they call it a "primer", I think that hole is a cleanout that is supposed to be plugged.

I would (If it were mine) pull all that stuff out, and put in a regular #11 nipple . . .

What's the model?

This is a " closed ignition" system ( note the screw-on cap that has to be unscrewed, then screwed back on to get the gun to fire each time!)

That has been used to fire small pistol primers in large bore, underhammer, " SlUG" guns for years.

This one appears to be modified to shoot shotgun primers, instead of small pistol primers. I can see a lot of those screw-on caps being dropped in the forests to be lost due to cold fingers. For that reason this is the LAST GIZMO I would encourage any new ML shooter to use on a gun for a hunt. Talk about a "SLOW" reload??? :idunno: :surrender:

I encourage this new shooter, and others to replace this with a traditional Nipple, and use #11 standard percussion caps. The MAGNUM caps are intended to use with the higher flash point( ignition temperatures) required to burn the substitute powders. The 209 Shotgun primers, are intended for use in those zip guns we don't discuss on this forum, NOT Sidelocks. Musket caps are designed to be used on Military style firearms designed to use Musket caps.

How to order or buy a replacement nipple? First, visit a hardware store where you can use their metric gauges to determine what your metric thread size is on this device. Check the gauge by finding a nut that size in the store, and try it on your current device. Write down the size, so you don't forgets.

Now, call Track of the Wolf, Dixie, or any other supplier of ML gun parts( see our "LINKS" page for a long list of suppliers), tell them the make(brand)caliber, and the measurement of the thread size, and they will tell you what nipple you need. You can buy stainless, high carbon steel, or nipples made of bronze alloys. All will use standard #11 percussion caps. Now, order a capper to use to hold the caps, and assist you in capping the nipple safely.

A lot of new shooters fall victim to advertising "PUFF" claiming Musket, or shotgun primers, or small pistol primers, or MAGNUM percussion caps, are preferred because they put out more flame. I don't know about "MORE". I do know they burn hotter, because that is what is needed to get good ignition with the substitute powders.

If you will do you own Testing of these kinds of claims, you will quickly learn to ignore them. At night, in the deep dark of an overcast sky, turn out the lights and with an empty gun, fire a cap off- or better, let a friend or family member fire off a cap-- while you watch the muzzle of the gun. You will see flame come out of the muzzle even on long barreled rifles.

I tested some " Magnum #11" caps when they first came out, and found NO difference in the length of the flame that came out of my 39" barrel on my .50 cal. rifle, when compared to standard #11 caps. Is the flame HOTTER? I have no way to measure the temperature inside the barrel, so I have to leave that information to others. But, since I ONLY SHOOT BLACK POWDER in my gun, I simply don't need the magnum primers.

Having an identical Twin brother has, as one of its few benefits, a close friend who also has his own MLers, and can test these things, as well as meet people at his club with these new gadgets. He does his own testing- why trust your brother when you can do your own tests? ( Yes, twins tend to be that competitive!) He has actually seen some of these GIZMOS on other shooter's guns, and has helped them find components, and then shown them that changing the ignition system BACK to a standard percussion nipple has its advantages.

He also has more actual, and recent, hands-on experience with the zip guns. He finds it amusing to watch the frustration these guys have trying to dig out that spent 209 primer from the breech of these guns after a couple of shots are fired. :hmm:

What do you think that hole is?

Shouldn't it be plugged?

Those threads on the nipple adapter look rusty too . . .

Yes! That hole is where the cleanout screw is supposed to be. Shoot it that way and there is going to be a heck of a flame shooting out of it!

The ' Hole" in the side looks like a " Clean-out" hole. It should be threaded for a missing screw. Since Investment makes the guns for both Cabelas, and Lyman, give Lyman a call for parts.

A clean-out hole give access to the very small flash channel, that runs from the base of the nipple over to the center back of the barrel, where it meets a hole at right angles, that enters a powder chamber at the breech end of the bore. The powder chamber is smaller in diameter than the bore of the rifle, making it necessary to ascertain the diameter of that chamber, and then acquire a bore brush small enough to fit into it to clean it.

Pumping soap and water through the small hole and out the flash channel is the only way I know to clean out powder residue in those small spaces. Use alcohol to evaporate any remaining water, and remove ( dissolve and flush out) any oils or grease that may be clogging the flash channel. Using the next size drill bit will enlarge that flash channel, reduce the short length of the hole into the powder chamber, making it easier to keep clean, and easier to get powder down through the powder chamber into the flash channel for proper ignition. One of the disadvantages of using substitute powders in these guns is that the larger sized powders are " fluffy" with large, misshapenned granules of powder. These tend to clog easily, and by their size, make it difficult to get them to go through the small holes into the flash channel and over under the nipple for fast, and reliable ignition. Use "Pistol" powders in these brands of substitutes to avoid the problem, and frustration with hang-fires. ( Ex. Pyrodex comes in "RS", meaning rifle/shotgun, or in "P", meaning pistol powder. The P powder makes its way through the small holes more easily than does the RS, particularly after several shots have been fired, leaving a bit of residue in all the small holes. )

The only way to correct these breeches is to remove the breech from the barrel, then using a milling machine to bore out the powder chamber, eliminating the center hole in the back of the powder chamber, and shortening the distance the flash channel has to reach the bottom of the nipple.

The gunsmiths I know who do this kind of modification will open the powder chamber up to bore diameter, to make it easier to clean the breech with the same jag and patch combination used to clean the bore. There is plenty of steel left to insure safety when these guns are fired, as modified. :hmm:

Is this somebodies idea of an April Fool's joke gone bad?

Not as far as I know, just someone new to the area of interest trying to get started.
I had a follow up thought. Whatever "primers/caps" are used they'd need to have an anvil incorporated in them to work. I guess this means modern shotgun primers?

At least we've figured out the equipment & the need to replace the screw before anyone got hurt.

Couple more pics of the markings on the rifle to help ID it maybe?

These are also a major safety as you can not see if the gun is primed or not! :idunno: I won't go into the details snce I type slowly with my left hand. But I made the mistake of helping a friend sight in a @#$% line with simular set up. I made the capital sin of trying to load a primed rifle.Which I would never knowingly do. The safety apparently slide forward on my leg when I set the rifle down to load. When I rammed the ball down the gun fired,taking my ring finger on the right hand with it! :surrender: :surrender:

Sorry to hear about that accident, and the loss of your finger. I was thinking the same thing about these devices being used on Sidelocks.

The slug gun shooters, only PRIME their guns when the barrel is loaded, and the gun is mounted on a custom made bench, built for that specific rifle, and the barrel is pointed down range. The Range officer has to open the range up before the guns are primed. UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, its next to impossible to be loading a Primed gun. It takes some time to remove the cap, remove the spent primer, then clean the mechanism before putting a new small rifle primer back in the device, and screw it back on its mount. All those Fine Motor muscle activities also take quite a bit of concentration to do correctly, so the Slug Gun shooters KNOW when their guns are ready to fire.

That would not be the case with a sidelock rifle.

Even those zip guns are not easy to check to see if they are primed. Typically, a hammer has to be cocked, and a bolt of some kind removed, or a bolt action has to be opened and pulled back to expose the primer. I own some 19th century cartridge, single shot rifles, that have similar systems, and similar safety concerns, but there is NO pretense being made that the factory has provided a "MANUAL SAFETY " on these old guns, to use to make the guns safe to handle during loading, or reloading. :hmm: :hatsoff:

Being that it's an Investarm rifle, a 6mm x .75 nipple will fit as a replacement for the sealed primer unit.

Would that then take a #11 primer? Or is a #10 correct?
Sorry, I'm really lacking in knowledge of percussion rifles. :surrender:

It would use a #11 percusion cap.

Those sealed ignition systems were made for both 6X.75 and 1/2X28. He will have to determine whether the thread dimensions are as manufactured or not. The sealed ignitons that I am familiar with use either large pistol or small rifle primers, not shotgun primers.
Mark :idunno:

If he ever comes back to the thread.

Papa said:

Those sealed ignition systems were made for both 6X.75 and 1/4X28. He will have to determine whether the thread dimensions are as manufactured or not. The sealed ignitons that I am familiar with use either large pistol or small rifle primers, not shotgun primers.
Mark :idunno:

Click to expand...

Fellas, I misstated dimensions earlier. I meant 1/4X28.
Mark

It's an Investarm. The nipple thread is 6 x .75