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60 grs FFFg for Deer

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Snow on the Roof said:
I respect Dan's opinion a lot. For those "Uber" deer they have in Wyoming and Montana coupled with the ranges one typically finds out west I would heed Mr Phariss'advice, 90 grains +. Here in the midwest of the 40 or so deer I've killed in the last 30 years only four where taken past 50 yards. Sixty grains combined with a .490 RB is more than adequete at our abreviated ranges. Thirty or more years ago I thought these midwestern whitetails required 110 grains or more but a few dead deer and a lot of gray hairs lead me to believe that today's deer just are'nt as tough as their ancestors :haha: !

Snow
Where and what the game is will determine many things.
A 45 caliber RB rifle with 45 grains of powder will kill deer at 40-50 yards.
Ran 70 yards or so. But I have seen them run farther with similar shots from a lot more gun, modern or otherwise.
Ball did not exit.
The primary reason for heavier powder charges is flatter trajectory. If you need more killing power the best way to get it is with a larger ball size. The 50-54 caliber rifle is an excellent compromise. Good killing power, low lead/powder consumption. In the east 45-50 will serve the same purpose.
Out here I shoot quite a few deer at 50 yards or even less. But one cannot count on it and should be prepared for shots at the far side of 100.
I have killed several in the 140-150 yard range over the years.
I have killed even Antelope at very close range 20 yards or so. But it requires:
1. Luck of circumstance, I have had them come to me not knowing I was there, same with deer.
2 "Friendly" terrain.
In the east things are far different. There are places out here that I hunt that I don't even go there is a ML. The country is just too "big".
DickintheBigSky.jpg

I killed an antelope about 1/2 mile from here this day. But not with a ML.
From this ancient monument one can see to the horizon in nearly a 180 degree arc.
IMGP0080.jpg

About 1000 yards NE is a good camping spot.
One can set here, unseen at the monument and keep and eye on a lot or country.
I walked about 3 miles round trip to look at this thing. Not really deer country but during hunting season one never knows where some will be.

This was a 90 yard shot.
IMGP0153.jpg

Held center of shoulder with a slight lead, deer was moving. Ball hit center of shoulder.

If the rifle is sighted too close or the velocity is too low this becomes a problem with where to hold.
So I follow James Forsythe's advice and sight my rifle for a range that will allow me to hold center for as far as I should be shooting with RB gun and all worries about hold over/under go away.
The animal is either in range or its not. If not get closer. If in range put the frontsight where you want the ball and break the trigger.
If one hunts in the east perhaps from a tree stand then this is far less important. In this case a larger ball is more important than trajectory. The larger ball will reduce the animals ability to run onto the wrong side of the fence for example.

The low sights on original rifles were designed to keep the ball very close to the line of sight to 100-130 yards. So no matter what you shot at you simply held where you wanted the ball to hit.
The rifle matches were shot under rules that allowed the barrel to cool between shots so mirage on the barrel was not a factor in most cases.

High sights, low sights.
The AR 15 is designed to give about a 400 yard point blank on an enemy soldier. The high sight line help it do this and to lower the bore centerline for less muzzle rise. But a human target is deep vertically and being off 5" vertically is not important. 5" on a deer is a problem and ARs shoot low at close range. Low enough to make it necessary to hold high to hit a rabbit. The low sighted Kentucky does not have this problem but will require 4 feet or more hold over at 300.
But to 150 a center hold would kill a man standing in a rank with his Brown Bess easily.
So when we start thinking sights and trajectories we need to understand that the RB given its 45 or to 69 caliber, has a point blank for deer of about 110-130 yards with all the powder one might care too shoot. Understanding this makes the hunters shooting easier. The 25 and 50 yard target shooter may need a different sight in point.
I am supposed to be on my morning walk.
Dan
 
I'd stick with the load you have, your excellent offhand score indicates it's a good one.
My wife hunts with a little .50 caliber with 24" barrel and 50 grains of 3f. She hasn't yet gotten a shot at game but I did take a big mulie doe with her rifle. It was facing me at about 50 yards. The ball entered the upper chest and I found it under the hide on a ham. The doe just stood for a couple of seconds, then toppled over stiff legged like a lawn ornament, never kicked nor attempted to rise.
 
Please show me in this thread where I said - I thumb started anything?

I've been doing this for over 30 yrs (hiatus for 12 yrs from 95 to 07) so, I have plenty of experience and probably shoot as much as many on this forum - maybe more than some.

I don't care if it computes to you or not - I am telling you this bore is one tight sucker. The load that works for me really well - .480 rb, .15-16 pillow ticking patch, lubed with saliva and cut at the muzzle. I start it with a rap from my deer leg bone handled knife - it has a nice swell at the end or I can use a short starter but I lose them things alot. If I happen to have it I will use the short starter to drive it down a bit farther in the bore. If not I really choke up on my ramrod (I seldom carry a range rod) and slowly push it down a little at a time.

Going to a .490 RB with a thinner patch- I have to use a short starter and as long as the bore is not terribly dirty (about 10 shots or perhaps 15) I can use the wooden ramrod very carefully - but, I have put a broken rod into my hand a few times in the past and although I haven't done that yet with this gun, I have cracked them and broke them.

If you go to a .495 rb - you better bare ball it, short start it and use a steel range rod - and after 10 or 15 shots you may have to use something to seat it on the powder - I have used my short starter, pushing it against a fence post and yes a rubber mallet.

This brings up an interesting attitude - I am always amazed at muzzleloader shoots - I sometimes attend - you see shooters with wood boxes with several different patch lubes, ball sizes, and patch material - perhaps they are loading for several different calibers - spotting scopes and the like.

I generally show up with a shooting pouch - which carries everything I need to load and shoot my rifle or smoothbore (I do have a seperate pouch for each) and perhaps a steel range rod.

I go to ranges about once a month sometimes less - but I often (sometimes as many as 3 or 4 times a week in my slow season) shooting targets that are at different ranges - uphill or downhill, biodegradeable clay targets, gourds, willow shoots and the like - overall I think it makes me a better shot and perhaps a better game hunter.

Here in SD - I shoot prairie dogs at least once a week sometimes 2 or 3 times a week - at various ranges all loading and shooting out of the pouch - I may shoot prone, offhand, or kneeling - but watch out for the rattlesnakes.

And this is the most I have ever written - to anyone, explaining myself!!!!! :shake:

Regards;

Keith Hickam

Dan'l
 
Killed a couple with 50 grs of FFFg in the 45.Sure the 50 will do it.
Its not what you hit them with but where you hit them.
 
Nice deer...and nobody is disputing moderate powder charges for close shots if that's all you're confronted with or are disciplined enough to take.
 
KHickam said:
Please show me in this thread where I said - I thumb started anything?

I've been doing this for over 30 yrs (hiatus for 12 yrs from 95 to 07) so, I have plenty of experience and probably shoot as much as many on this forum - maybe more than some.

I don't care if it computes to you or not - I am telling you this bore is one tight sucker.



Regards;

Keith Hickam

Dan'l

Unless slugged and carefully measured or plug gaged (best) its tough to tell what the bore size really is.
I usually shoot a ball about .005 (preferred) or .010" under the bore, figuring .500" for a 50 and a heavy patch. I use plug gages to center the bore in the lathe. The Green Mountain 50s will accept a .498 or 499 plug gage with enough clearance to allow it to slide easily with little excess clearance so I would call them very close to .500"
With a decent crown these can be loaded with just a rod though I use a starter on the swivel breech.
I was using a 480 and a heavy ticking patch in a GM 50 smooth which requires a smaller ball than a grooved barrel of the same caliber.
Also the land/groove ratio can effect how easy a barrel will load. Narrow lands load much easier.

Dan
 
Dan, your pics make long for the Mountains. I didn't make it this year due to family commitments but I'll be back next fall wondering the plains and hills of Wyoming or Colorado flintlock in hand...always enjoy your posts, keep them coming.

Snow
 
Dan, Snow, Trench and others. Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. :thumbsup:

Dan'l
 
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned concerning patch/ball fit is how deep the rifling is. In my Rice .54 I can start a .526 ball with .018 patch without a short starter on a woods walk. If I load from a bench, I use .530 or .535 ball with a short starter using that same patch. My rifling is .015" so a thick patch helps. The rest is kind of what game you want to play. Going with a .526 on woodswalks is a choice I made to limit what I carry.

Someone mentioned all the stuff carried in a shooting box. I carry the same box for more than one gun and all the tools needed to fix things. I shoot too far from my shop to want to run back and forth. (Don't let this last comment hijack the thread.)

Regards,
Pletch
 
roundball said:
Nice deer...and nobody is disputing moderate powder charges for close shots if that's all you're confronted with or are disciplined enough to take.

That's the key, isn't it? If you use lighter loads, you need to understand the limitations you might be putting on yourself so you don't take a silly shot.
The only reason that deer was shot with that load was because I didn't have time to work anything else up. After that season I went to 70gr 2F and found out that the accuracy bottomed out with anything higher.
 
60 gr will be fine. I hunt with a .54 TVM Earley Virginia rifle with a 26" barrel I use 70gr FFF have taken 5 deer with it. Have yet to recover a ball. More powder may be more power but what do I want? If it is accurate in your rifle and you know your limits. For me with iron sights I stay 75 yards or less. Old eyes not rifle.
 
Sixty grains of 3f is extremely accurate in my TVM EV .50 and hits hard. That load will definitely take deer. Still, I prefer around 75 grains for deer which maintains the same level of accuracy with a little more power. IMHO a hunting load should require a short starter (with an unconed muzzle). Once started it goes down easily. A .010 undersized ball should work fine with a .015 patch. Even a .005 undersized ball can work well in many instances. Good luck.
 
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