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smooth bore barrel demand

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laffindog said:
Here's something that I think has been overlooked in this discussion of CNC vs. custom. Yes, a CNC machine can whip 'em out quick but consider this:

A CNC machine is very expensive compared to a 60" bed lathe for custom work. A CNC can cost $80,000.00 on up to 100 grand. To ever get his money back on that investment (and make his payments to the bank) a barrel maker has to have that bugger running as many hours a day as possible. I know from eperience that if you can't run dozens of barrels on a single set-up then it isn't profitable to do. If you want those custom specs. think Hoyt or Rayl. Then expect to have to pay custom prices. Cheap barrels ar not a bargain, they are just cheap. (or tubing)

L. Dog

And to counter that, if said person or company are already using a CNC machine, how big of an expense is it to add a few more items to the workload their current machine is already doing?

Truth be told, I am just taking the first baby steps to making my first piece, I've been lurking on this forum for over two years, and read many books and articles in that time as well as talked to a lot of people in that time. Ignoring all that, one of the most discouraging things I am currently finding with the prospect of building smooth-bores, is the lack of choices in reasonably easy to find barrels (specially in longer lengths). I have a particular fondness for the early fowlers with the longer barrels (in those common lengths in history but impossible to find "off the shelf" lengths of 48 to 56 inches), and hope to make a long fowler some day, but currently with a many months to a year or two wait on custom barrels, I am almost feeling put off enough by it to give up the notion.

Having said that, the cost of something custom doesn't phase me in the least... It is the thought of that much of my money being held up with nothing to show for it for such a long (and often unspecific) period of time that bothers me.
 
You can find CNC machines for much less used, and at Bankruptcy and going out of business sales. I have a client who has fitted his entire plant out with CNC machines, and NONE of them were bought at "New " prices. He makes stocks for the gun industry, but, not the barrels. He is now buying Robots to handle some of the heavier work, where they are advantageous. He has the execs from all the gun companies( modern) coming to visit his plant to see how he has done it.

No, I doubt a one-man shop can justify a CNC machine to make barrels, altho, I just visited another client( a one man machine shop) who has a CNC Milling machine he bought from his prior company when it went out of business. But, a small 3-5 man shop may be able to do so.

My client hired computer programmers to set up the programs. He has skilled machine operators who change out the tool bits on the cutter heads of the machines. Everything else about these machines are basically indestructible. The Great savings in using these machines is the HUGE REDUCTION in WASTE, particularly when any product requires multiple operations to make. ( Consider, if a mistake is made in the final of 10 operations on that piece, you have wasted not just the cost of the raw material, but the labor involved in the prior 9 steps as well.)

Its labor costs that have driven so many businesses overseas. By using CNC machines, my client has been able to " steal" business back from Asian countries, and actually reduce the sales price of his products, while still making a profit. :shocked2: :thumbsup:
 
Paul is kinda right, but it's always more complicated..
GM can build the barrels.. say 100 54" 12 gauge Oct/Rd with a wedding band and a nice little flare on the end,, thin walled,, within reason. Between the engineers and the lawyers.
The problem is the inventory/asset laws in this country,
NH has an inventory asset tax, so does the US government if I am not mistaken.
So, we build 100 of these barrels and it take a few years to sell them.. they become worth less and less as the years go on,, until the become, WORTHLESS :idunno:
That's the REAL reason you have to custom order these. There isn't a manufacture that is willing commit to having them in stock.
It's truly a sad state of affairs.
As far as cost is concerned. GM isn't the most expensive or the less expensive.
The CNC machines are used for all the barrels they make.. not just ML.. ML barrels are not the major source of income for them any more.
It's kind of sad, and I love SMOOTHIES.
 
The nice part of CNC equipment is that a company Doesn't have to stock pile products any more. They can set up the machine once a month, or once a week, etc. to produce whatever orders they have on hand. Out the door, and profit made. The programs are stored either in the computer on the machine, or in a master computer, or on a disk.

I can assure you that my client is not making products and storing them to wait for a possible sale. He is filling orders he has NOW. With older equipment, it could take a couple of days or longer to change over a production line, and you had to have long runs of the product to justify those costs, and make the product for a price your customers were willing to pay. set up time is much faster, with CNC equipment, and time IS MONEY in any business.
 
Well, as you folks know. I build a lot of fowling guns of all sorts. The barrel selection now is 100% better today than it was even 15 years ago. Colerain has a wide selection of smoothbore barrels to choose from. I generally try to use their barrels as they are usually easy to get from one of several suppliers. If I need something long or very large bored I go to Bob Hoyt, Ed Rayle or Ben Coogle, they can make me anything I can dream up and usually get it to me in under a year.
I personally think GM would be wasting their time with smoothbored barrels as the bases are already well covered. Just my view. :v
Prices? Well, you get what you pay for. :wink: My trade gun barrels cost me $275 + shipping now. I don't like it , but they aren't going to come down in price....maybe I should give those fellows in India a call.... :hmm: :rotf:
 
OK, Paul. That's the point. Inventory is evil. I try to keep around 100 barrels in stock at all times, not becausee I sell all that many guns but because of the variety I need to have of lengths and gages. To add another set of lengths and calibers in quantities to justify the set ups and etc. can break a guy. When I need money to invest in another machine or whatever I look at my barrel bins and think there is all my money tied up in evil inventory. How many 48"-50" 12 gage barrels can I sell and at what profit and how long to get the money back from the investment? Those barels are available from the custom guys so "off the shelf" isn't feasable.

If you could go to GM and order 24+ barrels and PAY FOR THEM UP FRONT then I bet they would be more willing to run them. In the meantime YOU will be responsible for storing and selling/shipping them. You may be going about your quest from the wrong direction. Instead of contacting GM through the front door maybe you could convince TOW to order them through the back door. TOW can finance the deal and control the inventory. But don't count on it.

A CNC machine isn't magical. It still needs to be set up and fed and while it is running a short run it could be running a long run of standard barrels which is more in demand and will move quicker. Minimums are SOP in the industry to cover costs. Unless you can run a bunch of one pattern it isn't any better/cheaper to run them on a CNC then to do onesies or twosies on a bed lathe.

Sorry for the economics 101 lecture :surrender:

L. Dog
 
I appreciate the discussion, and you certainly have nothing for which to apologize. We are talking the same thing- economics- which too few consumers truly understand. The only way most dealers can stay in business is to demand payment up front, or before a product is shipped. I know too many good manufacturers who have been driven to bankruptcy by customers who think they can use the manufacturer as a " banker", and wait to pay him for the products he sells them AFTER they sell the products months later.

When I am advising new dealers, I tell them to offer to order parts and guns NOT on hand in their own inventory, for customers on receipt of payment of the dealer's cost to buy it. Let customers know they can order anything, if they pay for it up front, and perhaps receive a discount on the final cost. The customers will do your local market survey.

I once ordered a Mil. Surp. gun because I had not bought a gun for myself in several years, and had a birthday coming up. The price was so cheap, I almost didn't believe it.

When I got home, after giving my FFL a check for the gun, I talked to my brother on the phone, and he said, "Order One of those for me, too!". Then I talked to my Ex-wife, and she told me to order one for her, Also. I called my dealer back and told him to wait until tomorrow evening before sending in the order, so I could get out with another check for the additional guns.

The Next morning, my best friend heard about the Order, and wanted a gun for himself, too. I drove out at lunch time with money for three more guns.

In the meanwhile, my dealer had another friend come over, and when he heard about the rush to buy these surplus guns, HE ordered one, also! We received 5 guns in that first order, and I believe my dealer ended up ordering a couple more after other customers heard the story, and looked at the one gun someone was late in picking up.

If my dealer was in a retail setting, it would have been wise of him to order 3 or more of these guns to put in his inventory, knowing how quickly they would be bought by shooters who knew value.

As it was, my dealer worked out of his home, where he had a hundred yard range in the backyard that he used to sight in, and shoot all manner of guns. I later met a man who owned 5 of the same model gun I bought that night, for $85 wholesale. I have since seen a few in used gun racks priced at $300.00 and more. The Wholesale price has also gone up, as the supply has dwindled.

Inventory doesn't make a dealer any money sitting there. That is why Gun Accessories cost so much money- with a very high " mark-up" for profit to help pay the dealer's overhead.

I knew a dealer with a retail shop who moved his used gun inventory every WEEK, by selling the guns for only a few dollars profit on each gun. He purposely set his prices low, and became known for at least 100 miles around as THE place to get a good deal on guns. He told me( His Econ 101 lecture) that he could make $20.00 a week every week of the year on a $300.00 investment, or, like many competitors, leave the "inventory " sit on his shelf with a price tag that would eventually make him $100.00. But, he would be losing money if that gun was not sold in 5 weeks!

He accepted guns in trade, and made money on those trades, too. That was one reason he could offer slightly used guns for such a discounted price.

He had been around enough other gun stores to know that they were not rotating their stock that much, and some guns were allowed to sit for Years. :shocked2: :nono:

My comment is, Yes, if you let the inventory sit too long, you are losing money. So, why not get what you can from it, as soon as possible, learn your lesson, and re-invest your money on something that WILL Sell?? You have the profit from filling the original orders, and you will have whatever you get out of selling the remaining barrels at a discount, which represents a "loss ", but converts inventory into cash. No one ever said that selling does not involve gambles. You won't always win. But, you can reduce the frequency of your losses. :hmm: :thumbsup:
 
Yeah, but if you could choose a bore, length, gauge and profile of smooth barrel you'd like to see more available, what would it be?
 
Mike Brooks said:
maybe I should give those fellows in India a call.... :hmm:

Yeah, cheap barrels, and if you sell enough of them you could you afford to pay the litigation for those that blow up...but you can blame the explosions on operator error, right? :v :wink:

God bless
 
Rich Pierce said:
Yeah, but if you could choose a bore, length, gauge and profile of smooth barrel you'd like to see more available, what would it be?
Since you asked..... 10 or 11 bore "54 long 1 3/8 at the breech with a fairly rapid taper. 60" in that configuration would be OK too.
 
Rich Pierce said:
Great specs for HVFs. Need to find some long stock blanks!
What is a HVF??
You got to love 3 letter acronyms :surrender:
I am going to find out what GM's min order quantity is, and if they do small custom work.
Mike, sounds like a great barrel.
 

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