Middlesex Village Trading

djack said:

You suck

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Another "expert" checks in with valuable input..

Dan

Muskeg Stomper said:

Funny thing with some folks. I read Dan's post and simply thought "I don't agree with him". 'Course I've also read lot's of Dan's other posts and thought to myself "Boy, this guy is someone I can learn things from".

Opinions and honest discussions are one of the things that makes this forum great but two word opinions don't add much to my knowledge base. :haha:

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Trying to sort out burst firearms can be pretty frustrating. Blowups with BP are nearly impossible to recreate.
Thus some shooter can have a valid blowup with a barrel loaded properly with the right powder, moderate load, ball on the powder etc etc. But someone can take an identical barrel from the same maker made from a bar from the same lot of steel and its impossible to even bulge it. The barrel maker and most people that hear about it think "the idiot did not load it right". And this does happen. But there have been blowups that simply cannot be explained away as shooter error. Besides with BP a bore obstruction should not shatter the barrel. It should bulge. If it breaks the barrel steel is probably not what it should be. But this starts yet another peeing match with some barrel maker(s) who everyone thinks is an expert even though he uses brittle, cold rolled, free machining steel for barrels.
Note ALL free machining steels are brittle and not suitable for barrels. Look it up.

Don't agree with me. But look into this on your own. THINK. If you can find a metallurgist with some firearms experience ask questions. I know of one metallurgist that shoots MLs, has for decades. But his opinions on barrel steels are similar to mine (since his writings are what I base some of the above post on) and will get him attacked if he posts them just like the "you suck" thing here though most are more detailed. I have gotten it too. So I avoid mentioning the brittle, cold rolled steel that is nearly the standard for custom ML barrel makers.

If you find a metallurgist show him this post or at least the letter below.
This was something else that helped form my position on barrel steels. It was published during the great barrel steel debate of the 1970s and 1980s in the now long gone Buckskin Report magazine. Would have to find the specific magazine to get the precise date I cropped it off the scan to reduce the memory requirements. But if someone needs it I can find it in 1/2 hour or so.



But a barrel maker who used 12L14 in a subsequent issue of the magazine tried to turn this into LaSalle saying it was OK to use 12L14. I don't see it in there but somehow he did. This indicates the thought processes. Funny part was the barrel making company he was defending was swithing to 1137 GB quality at the time...

Now if someone here wants to refute this guy, even though he is surely retired by now, go for it.

Dan

I agree with Dan on this one. But respectful disagreement is not a problem for most of us, and I believe this includes Dan. The two word response referred to was uncalled for and way out of line and I cannot comprehend the reason for it. After reading Dan's post for the third time, I can find absolutely no reason for such a rude and immature response. And still the poster hasn't responded to any of the posts regarding his post which may be a further indication of his youth and lack of grace. And without further dialogue, no understanding and resolution can be reached.

B Shipman said:

The Indians, in truth are capable of great quality at a most modest price. Log Cabin Shop used to sell hand forged mainsprings for Siler locks. Perfect and finished. I couldn't finish one for he price. Flawless. Made in India.

TOF sells a handforged T.G. An almost an xact copy of the Bean cast guard that's been offered for 30 years. It sells for less than the casting. And the workmanship is perfect. I bought one.
I have no idea, but I'll eat my shorts if this is'nt made in India. That being said....
Not even the Indians can make a quality musket for $800. Remember excise and manufacturng taxes and middlemen and many shippings add greatly to the cost. Our custom stuff is a bargain.
A Pedersoli Brown Bess, by contrast, is tough as nails, authentic , and gives vast years of fun and reliable service. If you've used one of these, you're not going to be interested in an $800 job.

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Great post, Bill. My son has been shooting a Pedersoli short land pattern gun for 24 years. Kit Ravenshear converted it into a long land pattern a few years back and three years ago the frizzen after several rehardenings had to be replaced and we had it rehardened so it should be good for another 20 or more years.I totally agree with you that custom guns are the way to go although admittedly Indian and similar guns are because of the low cost within the price range of reenactors who cannot afford a custom gun which isn't available commercially.Therein lies the problem for those who cannot afford a custom gun and cannot assemble a kit and frankly I don't have an answer.My son last year bought an imported pistol and of course we had to slim it down.We also,out of an abundance of caution, rebarreled the gun with one from Ed Rayl so that when he starts shooting lead bullets there is nothing to fear.

My two sons,my daughter in law,and I are all veteran reenactors {17th century through WWII} and are extremely careful in the use of thse guns.The lack of diligent care and the failure to use common sense probably are the two most common bases for gun accidents.I once cleaned a gun for a CW reenactor complaining that it wouldn't work properly and I doubt he had cleaned his gun{an Enfield}within the past year if at all.
NUFF SAID
Tom Patton

B Shipman said:

That being said....
Not even the Indians can make a quality musket for $800.

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You know I missed this the first time around.

Now there's no way I'm going to argue that the Indian made muskets are high quality, but the idea that a high quality musket couldn't be made for less than $800 sounds ludicrous. I mean there's a lock, a very long smoothbore barrel and a longer than normal stock, but by and large it's an extremely simple design intended for users who won't complain about minute of man accuracy at 50 yards.

Sure, no custom maker could do it for that price, but they're entirely different than a manufacturer churning out thousands of an item. I'd bet that TC or Traditions could easily turn out a good musket with a price under $800 and I'd bet Norinco could do it for quite a bit less.

Not likely. The Norinco made musket would probably be hard to tell from the Indian one. A true musket with a decent flintlock and a quality 46" barrel and a one piece walnut stock plus decent furniture and good fit and finish is going to be expensive even when mass produced. T/C isn't going to go there, and I doubt if there is a big market for a Spanish built musket at that price tier.

mr.fudd said:

B Shipman said:

That being said....
Not even the Indians can make a quality musket for $800.

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You know I missed this the first time around.

Now there's no way I'm going to argue that the Indian made muskets are high quality, but the idea that a high quality musket couldn't be made for less than $800 sounds ludicrous. I mean there's a lock, a very long smoothbore barrel and a longer than normal stock, but by and large it's an extremely simple design intended for users who won't complain about minute of man accuracy at 50 yards.

Sure, no custom maker could do it for that price, but they're entirely different than a manufacturer churning out thousands of an item. I'd bet that TC or Traditions could easily turn out a good musket with a price under $800 and I'd bet Norinco could do it for quite a bit less.

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Hot dog!!! Lets import some MORE stuff from communist China.
People could speak with pride, "my musket was made with slave labor".

Dan

Russ T Frizzen said:

Not likely. The Norinco made musket would probably be hard to tell from the Indian one. A true musket with a decent flintlock and a quality 46" barrel and a one piece walnut stock plus decent furniture and good fit and finish is going to be expensive even when mass produced. T/C isn't going to go there, and I doubt if there is a big market for a Spanish built musket at that price tier.

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If Traditions can sell this, http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=264886
for $570, ($513 if you pay an additional $30 to join their "buyers club"), then I don't see any reason why they couldn't make a musket for the same price.

Dan Phariss said:

Hot dog!!! Lets import some MORE stuff from communist China.
People could speak with pride, "my musket was made with slave labor".

Dan

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Heck, four years from now the Chinese will be more capitalist than we are.

The Pedersoli 1762 lock for their short land musket and the barrel for same are worth more than the whole Traditions gun. IMHO. Pedersoli should not be taken as a whole. They can make very good stuff for the money and junk. So can the Indians. Neither makes even a marginal longrifle IMHO. BUT, If you ever see a long land musket with the 1762 lock imported for the bicentenial in 1976 for under $2000, buy it. They go for more than that. Same lock and barrel quality as the current short land Pedersoli. The stock work is just cheaped up a bit. But this can be worked out with a little skill.

[/quote]
If Traditions can sell this, http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=264886
for $570, ($513 if you pay an additional $30 to join their "buyers club"), then I don't see any reason why they couldn't make a musket for the same price.
[/quote]

They probably could but that isn't saying much. The quality of the parts is definitely not first rate and it's not even close to being historically correct. It has been deemed HC by an organization that apparently doesn't exist, and if it did, it is obvious that it has no idea what it is talking about. It has always come down to this: you get what you pay for. And it will ever be so. You pay for the best or you settle for whatever else is out there. And if that whatever else is made in India, China or Spain, you are settling for less than the best. If you are happy with this then you are easy to please and I'm sure these countries are grateful for your support.

Russ T Frizzen said:

djack said:

You suck

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It's always nice to have another thoughtful and gentlemanly muzzleloading enthusiast join the forum. One who shares our love of history and the old guns and times long past. Sadly, we got you instead...

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Russ,it is always a distinct pleasure to hear from someone who has such a command of the English language as your response indicates.Keep up the good work and always remember,"The force is with you".
Tom Patton

Dan Phariss said:

Hot dog!!! Lets import some MORE stuff from communist China.
People could speak with pride, "my musket was made with slave labor".
Dan

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Now Dan, you of all people should know that such blatantly inflammatory expressions of the truth will likely be met with a cryptic rebuttal by someone who has absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. :stir:

Hey, I really resent the fact that Dan is the one who sucks now. :cursing: I used to be the one who sucked........ :haha:

"If Traditions can sell this, http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=264886
for $570, ($513 if you pay an additional $30 to join their "buyers club"), then I don't see any reason why they couldn't make a musket for the same price'

I go with Russ on this one, that gun is nothing to be excited about for the price, it is not likely a musket made to the same standards would be either.

Mike Brooks said:

Hey, I really resent the fact that Dan is the one who sucks now. :cursing: I used to be the one who sucked........ :haha:

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Ahhh...uhhh...I don't think I wanna go there. :nono: :rotf:

Mike you can't hold a candle to the vacumn generated by a couple of others I have heard on the forum,If ya feel left out and need insulted I'll see if I can wake up Okwaho so's he can badger you a while.

Mike Brooks said:

Hey, I really resent the fact that Dan is the one who sucks now. :cursing: I used to be the one who sucked........ :haha:

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Hey now!!!! Don't be greedy. Maybe it's Dan's turn....

mr.fudd said:

Dan Phariss said:

Hot dog!!! Lets import some MORE stuff from communist China.
People could speak with pride, "my musket was made with slave labor".

Dan

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Heck, four years from now the Chinese will be more capitalist than we are.

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Heh, Heh!

Do you mean by our no longer making anything here to sell because we have shipped our manufacturing to Asia?
Or just by buying everything from the third world thus giving them all our cash? (And hoping it does not poison us?? Poisonous toys, baby formula, pet food, sheet rock etc ect.)

Or because we a careening down the road to socialism at break neck speed?

Dan

Can we please keep politics out of this forum?

Rick