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Original Antique rifles...avoid them? or not?

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StevePrice2

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Does anyone here own and shoot or purchase regularly original antique rifles? Obviously you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't. By that I mean an under-educated individual may purchase an "original Hawken" at a screaming deal and it turns out the "signed" Hawken is neither Jake, Sam or William but Clyde or Elmer. In other words a rip off.

But in the case of 'non-famous builder' guns in good condition at a fair market value of say $600-$1200 -which is what one could put in to a build or less expensive already built custom- is there a reason(s) to avoid buying originals?

The Civil War reenactors often will have original rifles; either Springfields or Enfields even an original Sharps or Trapdoor now and then. Does the same apply to Flinters and Cappers?

The guns are out there and I see them from time to time and to my less experienced eyes and hands, many of them look and feel very balanced, graceful, well built and in shootable condition hence my query...why not buy original anitque?

TIA-Steve
 
It is a manure shoot, to the inexperienced gun buyer, about value and condition. As far as paying huge sums for a named gun, I would be very cautious of that as well. Paying the big numbers, means I need to have a real expert, knowledgeable in that builder, look at the gun. Otherwise, if the gun is a good gun and it checks out to be sound and at a price that feels good to you, buy it. I have bought a few original guns and I shoot them regularly. I know many people may caution you about parts for these old guns, but remember, they were built by hand way back when and they were able to make the parts, I have never had a problem getting a part made or repaired today. But, like anything even made today, there are great guns that are well made and there are guns that are best to walk away from. Do your homework on guns and you will do alright.
 
If the gun truly is an original, is in sound, shootable condition, and is affordable, I say go for it! There's nothing like putting an old gun back in service. It's always a great feeling shooting an original and wondering who shot it before, and at what or whom, and why. Did the gun defend the homestead? Did it feed the family through a hard winter? Old guns are absolutely fascinating.

On the downside, sometimes there are hidden problems. If the gun is hammer welded, damascus, etc., it's always wise to get it magnafluxed before firing. Corrosion can hide between the laminations, invisible to the eye, but causing a weak spot that might let go under the pressure of firing. Most cities of any size will have a place that can do magnafluxing. Most welders can tell you who to contact. It's not terribly expensive.

Also, the wood might have weakened with age or have hidden flaws or cracks. I'd keep the loads moderate for safety and to avoid damaging such a piece of silent history.
 
Knowledge is Power. You hit it on the head. If you are not a well read collector of a particular school, or type of gun, find someone who is before investing money on an original. At the very minimum you should have any " original inspected by a qualified Black powder gunsmith- not all gunsmiths work on these older guns---. The gun has to be taken apart completely, and inspected for indications of origin, of each part. Many times, you find old parts combined with new parts, and because someone says this is an " Original _________", based on the name on one part( lock plates are classic items with names that have nothing to do with the actual gunmaker) you are led to believe you are buying a rare piece. Instead, most of the time, you are buying a new gun with an old lock, or a lock where a name has been stamped, or cut into it.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I have bought one gun for a ridiculously low price, but it only became so evident after I spent time and money to fix the gun so it would function. It took less effort to fix the problems than I had estimated, and the owner was aware that the gun had problems. So, he sold it to me cheap. I don't consider that I cheated the owner, nor that he didn't get good value for what he was selling. It was my after-sale work that returned the gun to its properly functioning state. When I got it working, I checked some books on current values and found it might be worth from 12 to 16 times what I paid for it. Its shoots quite well, and I intend to keep it.
 
Old original guns actually last longer if they are shot occasionally. They get cleaned better, oiled better and repaired if needed better than closet queens. So I think that you are helping preserve the guns; not use them up.

Like everyone else here has stated do your homework. Don't spend a lot of money for a named gun, just walk away there will be another opportunity down the road.

Many Klatch
 
Steve,
There is no reason to avoid "original" rifles. As everyone has said, be aware. It is like dealing with anything that costs money, and has an element of danger, be knowledgable of what you are dealing with or have someone looking over your shoulder that is. As a member of the Ohio Longrifle Collectors I can tell you, we shoot them in a match just for original Ohio made rifles every August. Proper inspection is made and if a rifle is judged sound we use very moderate loads, we are only punching holes in paper or hitting a relativley short range gong. After enlisting a knowledgable gunsmith for an inspection, sound judgement and common sense is the next best thing you can use.
Mark
 
Mark, sounds like fun. Where is this shoot, for these guns? What other regs. are there?
 
Dave,
The shoot takes place at the Centerburg Conservation Club in Centerburg, Ohio. I have not established a date yet but it is usually the first or second weekend in August. We shoot only original Ohio made rifles or Ohio made contemporary rifles. The targets are paper and novelty and it is a blanket match. I will post the date ASAP. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me. The day includes a family picnic and some of the wives and grandchildren join in the shooting.
Mark
 
Beautiful facility, Centerburg. We skirmish there three weekends a year. Whoever attends should have a great time!
 
I have had quite a few of them. I mostly would pick them up due to price. I will say that most of them have neglected bores, and stock problems too!

I will say, to me the stock situation is the toughest. Do you restock, and destroy more history etc...

I would say, that if you can find a all around sound gun, with good wood, good bore, good lock then why not!

I think it's great pressing into service these old guns if you can!
 
1816 Springfield flint .69 cal Hoyt reline barrel
English Stalking rifle 16 bore percussion 1835
Plains rifle .69 cal percussion 1850s
1841 Mississippi .58 cal. Hoyt relined barrel
1842 Springfield Rifled Musket .69 cal Hoyt relined barrel
1863 Springfield .58 cal
1868 Trapdoor .50-70
1888 Trapdoor .45-70

I shoot them all.With the exception of the Plains
Rifle, all the muzzleloaders have taken a deer.

Duane
 
greetings-----Before you buy an original, run a patch down the bore. I always keep a long cleaning rod and a set of jags in the truck when I peruse gun shows. If you run a patch down the bore and it feels like a gravel road, it probably wont be a "shooter" unless you reline it. On the other hand, if you just plain old WANT it, BUy IT!!! life is short.....enjoy it!
 
I'm not experienced on this but I've seen some originals that I THINK likely would be good to shoot. the Belgium musket (smoothy) I found has a badly pitted bore and I wouldn't shoot a projectile.
myself I would get an opinion from someone expert in originals before shooting one. I know some ol' timers (or did some of them died out)that have caplocks they still hunt with that were made around 1900. rifles and smoothys.
 
You right about the bore. I have one that because the bore was "bad" it is now a 38cal instead of the 34cal it was built as. So if course the condition of the bore helped establish the selling price. We have the original "family" gun here that could use a new bore. I would love to have it relined to the original cal. so that it is what it was made as, and the bullet mold that is still with the gun would work.
 
Re-freshing a rifle is a lot of work, but fun if you like repetitive motions. I really do like to keep the bore unlined if at all possible. I've got 2 barrels to re-fresh now.
 
Duane- that is quite the collection you have going! Congrats on owning and taking care of that much firearms history. I keep looking at some originals and can see at least one in my care in the next few purchases.

thanks, also to all replies and advice.
 
Bobbi Hoyt is the man to call on to reline your original heirloom gun. You won't even be able to see the junction between the barrel and the liner.
 
Your right Paul. My Dad actually has possession of the gun and that is OK. If it were in my possession, it would have been redone years ago and taking squirrels like my Great Great Grandfather did with it.
 
My brother had Bobby Hoyt refresh an original barrel circa 1800, that was badly pitted. He ended up having to open the bore to .42 caliber from what probably was a .34 caliber gun. The gun shot well, but the original breech was a hand-made " patent breech", that was made of iron, and it was badly corroded. Over the years that Pete has shot that gun, the breech just kept deteriorating, until if finally broke off too much of itself, and has to be replaced. Pete is thinking of having Bobby reline the bore to return it to its original caliber, when he replaces the breech. We found NO identifying information on the gun, and the barrel had been used to make a LH percussion action in the late 19th century, using a hardware store back action lock. The stock had lots of problems when he bought the gun, but the stock was restored by a friend of Peter. We have talked about relining the barrel, and I think he is finalizing his plans.
 
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