Guest
I don't really recall seeing these before but here recently been seeing a lot of them. Anyone have a story/provenance behind them. Are they historical or fantasy. And if historical, what time frames are we looking at. Thanks!
-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 27
They're real. They date from earliest times of firearms to present day.
Guest
Mike Brooks said:
Thanks Mike,
So theoretically the short rifle Boone carried as a youth, might have been one of these sporting rifles?
Stophel
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2005
- Messages
- 5,949
- Reaction score
- 858
Usually, when someone says "English sporting rifle" they mean 19th century percussion or flint rifles of exceptional quality, generally half stock. With names like "Rigby" or "Purdey" or "Manton" engraved upon them. The English had rifles prior to 1800, but they weren't a big thing.
Guest
Stophel said:
Good point, so what would you call these short barreled (31" / 32" barreled) full stock flinters that are showing up on websites like TOW described as English "sporting" rifles?
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 3,005
- Reaction score
- 1,249
They are still English sporting rifles. What you are seeing are probably kits by Chambers. That kit is after a Bobby Harn design if I am not mistaken. I think Mr. Harn based some of his design off of a gun by William Turvey that is in RCA Vol. 1. That gun dates about 1735-45.
Grizzled Roberts
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,781
- Reaction score
- 10
The model 1776 Tower rifle was a militerized English Sporting rifle. I have an Officer's Model
made by a local gunsmith Todd Carpenter. I call it my English Jaeger! The barrel is Jaeger including the sights and the rest is English.
The first run of this rifle made 800. According to DeWitt Bailey the total number was 1200.
It is ironic that we can trace the first few months of the few Ferguson rifles but little is known about the 1776 Tower rifle. Current thought is that Patrick Ferguson had a number of Tower rifles on King's Mountain in 1780. Not his breach loader.
The stock design of my officers model makes it a pleasure to shoot even with my bear loads!
:thumbsup:
made by a local gunsmith Todd Carpenter. I call it my English Jaeger! The barrel is Jaeger including the sights and the rest is English.
The first run of this rifle made 800. According to DeWitt Bailey the total number was 1200.
It is ironic that we can trace the first few months of the few Ferguson rifles but little is known about the 1776 Tower rifle. Current thought is that Patrick Ferguson had a number of Tower rifles on King's Mountain in 1780. Not his breach loader.
The stock design of my officers model makes it a pleasure to shoot even with my bear loads!
:thumbsup:
Stophel
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2005
- Messages
- 5,949
- Reaction score
- 858
The 1776 British military rifle is actually a pretty attractive gun. Very neat, but something like this would not have been common, and if one were looking for a "typical English rifle" of the 18th century (rifles weren't "typical" anyway), I would not use this as a model. It seems that this is probably what Mr. Painter is seeking here.
I believe prior to 1800 English Sporting Rifles were quite rare.
The British sportsman in the 17th and 18th century were very interested in hunting Fowl and a large number of their arms were smoothbores.
It wasn't until after 1800 that hunting in Africa and India became popular and large bore Sporting Rifles were the gun to use.
The British sportsman in the 17th and 18th century were very interested in hunting Fowl and a large number of their arms were smoothbores.
It wasn't until after 1800 that hunting in Africa and India became popular and large bore Sporting Rifles were the gun to use.
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 3,005
- Reaction score
- 1,249
Only a few could afford one and only a few had the right to hunt. Most were used for park deer from what I have read.
Soem makers like Twigg made some rifles in the German form as well. Wealthy men went to the continent to hunt larger game and came back with some German made peices.
Soem makers like Twigg made some rifles in the German form as well. Wealthy men went to the continent to hunt larger game and came back with some German made peices.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
If the subject is of interest, see if you can find a copy of John Nigel George's 'English Guns and Rifles' (now out of print). The subtitle is.... 'Being an account of the Develpment, Design, and Usage of English Sporting Rifles and Shotguns - from their Introduction during the Fifteenth Century until the Advent of the Metallic Cartridges in the Nineteenth Century - together with Notes on Muskets, Service Rifles, Blunderbusses and Other Arms including also Various Historical Notes and Accounts regarding Individual makers and Users of these Arms.'
David
David
Some 18th Century English Rifles.....
Some early breech loaders....
A fullstock
A Ferguson breech loading sporter
A late 18th Century trio...the top one is 75 caliber....the bottom has a German Barrel and the style is Germanic...
The Turvey rifle
An 1850's era half-stock percussion
The Turvey is from the RCA book and the other 18th century rifles are from "English Guns and Rifles by J. N. George/ Would have to look up the percussion source
Some early breech loaders....
A fullstock
A Ferguson breech loading sporter
A late 18th Century trio...the top one is 75 caliber....the bottom has a German Barrel and the style is Germanic...
The Turvey rifle
An 1850's era half-stock percussion
The Turvey is from the RCA book and the other 18th century rifles are from "English Guns and Rifles by J. N. George/ Would have to look up the percussion source
varsity07840
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2003
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 3
Mark Painter said:
I have one in percussion, circa 1830s. Took a buck with it this past season. See the posts in
the Traditional Hunting section "Westley Richards Rifle" 12/2/08 for pics of the rifle.
Duane
Here is the link to Duane's beautiful rifle
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...4701/hl/Westley+Richards/fromsearch/1/#644701
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...4701/hl/Westley+Richards/fromsearch/1/#644701
Last edited by a moderator:
Guest
Stophel said:
Mr. Painter? Is my father here? Thanks for all the replies guys. I dug out my copy of RCA and looked at the Turvey rifle. That's some fine craftsmanship. I also ventured out to Jim Chambers website to view the one he offers. Don't know how I ever missed that one before. Must be I can never seem to make it past the Mark Silver rifle. Thanks for all the replies guys. I hope to start my second build this year and was looking for something a little shorter, but not necessarily a Jaeger. The English may just fit the bill.
robinghewitt
62 Cal.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,605
- Reaction score
- 19
If you look through Gus Swenson's book Pictorial History of the Rifle you find that English sporting rifles were either Germanic or weird until the mid 19th century.
The previous owner of mine said he showed it to DWB who remarked it looked like the kind of thing the Victorians used to take up to Scotland and shoot at deer from 400 yards. If I load a long .451 suppository, sized to get past the choke, I can shoot 6" groups offhand at 100 yards.
I only know of one maker who really understands the complex geometry of the ESR and that is Dave Kanger.
The previous owner of mine said he showed it to DWB who remarked it looked like the kind of thing the Victorians used to take up to Scotland and shoot at deer from 400 yards. If I load a long .451 suppository, sized to get past the choke, I can shoot 6" groups offhand at 100 yards.
I only know of one maker who really understands the complex geometry of the ESR and that is Dave Kanger.
Rod Lassey
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2007
- Messages
- 1,418
- Reaction score
- 10
If you want a somewhat different view on English rifles of the late 1700s, take a look at the Proceedings of the 1984 Trade Gun Conference. Still available here:
http://collections.rmsc.org/LibCat/publications.html
The English made dead ringers of the rifles coming out of the gunshops of Pennsylvania, for the Indian trade. Later, these rifles simplified over time (British military-style patchbox instead of the ornate civilian style; stronger heavier stock lines, etc.) and were a popular Native gift item during the War of 1812. They proved so popular that eventually the Henry's of Pennsylvania copied them.
So, you have the original Pennsylania rifle, then the British copy thereof, and finally the American copy of the British copy.
Rod
http://collections.rmsc.org/LibCat/publications.html
The English made dead ringers of the rifles coming out of the gunshops of Pennsylvania, for the Indian trade. Later, these rifles simplified over time (British military-style patchbox instead of the ornate civilian style; stronger heavier stock lines, etc.) and were a popular Native gift item during the War of 1812. They proved so popular that eventually the Henry's of Pennsylvania copied them.
So, you have the original Pennsylania rifle, then the British copy thereof, and finally the American copy of the British copy.
Rod
Last edited by a moderator:
