Louis and Clark

I been reading excerpts from Louis and Clark's journals. The make reference to killing a number of grizzley bears,some of which were shot as many as 8 times.Anyone know what caliber rifles they carried? I'm thinking .36 or so.

One of Clark's personal rifles was a 0.360. It was referenced as being 100 to a pound. The miltary rifles were 0.54 caliber. There should also have been some 0.69 caliber smoothbores from the army regulars on the expedition. One of the problems is that the captains never really described the rifles and other guns that were carried. The best description is of the air gun and Clark's small rifle. It may have been made by a gunmaker named Small or just small in caliber. There are only tantalizing hints as to what they were. Harper's Ferry doesn't have the specific records as to what was issued. No one knows what caliber rifles were carried by the Hunters signed on at Fort Massac by Lewis.

Its just too confusing.

There is a bit of controversy over which rifles L&C carried. Many scholars, after much research, say that they carried shortened 1792 rifles of .49 caliber, possibly fitted with new locks. Others, particularly those who own copies of the 1803 rifle say that these rifles are what L&C carried, although there are indications that the first 1803s weren't built until after the expedition had left.

Whatever. You have no idea the can of worms you have probably opened. We've done this one to death a few times and so far no one has been killed....that I heard about at least. :rotf:

Chasam2345 said:

I been reading excerpts from Louis and Clark's journals. The make reference to killing a number of grizzley bears,some of which were shot as many as 8 times.Anyone know what caliber rifles they carried? I'm thinking .36 or so.

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The "issue" rifles they carried were either 50 or 54 caliber *probably*. Nobody knows. Nobody knows what they looked like except they were "short". This has been very well hashed out and all magazine articles and supposition aside we still are only guessing when saying what the rifles were.
Lewis (or maybe Clark, would have to look it up) tried to kill a buffalo with is personal rifle and gave up after numerous shots stating that the ball was too small.
I think one bear was killed with a musket after being shot a few times with rifles. The 69 round ball is a far more effective game getter than anything up to 66-69 caliber.
Several did not die on cue and the hunter had to run like heck to get away. They finally ordered no more bears to be shot since it was pointless and dangerous, they didn't need anyone getting clawed and chewed. The hunters apparently considered it great sport.
G.Bears that are not severely hurt or incapacitated at the first shot can soak up a lot of lead in subsequent shots from even powerful modern guns like .338 etc before expiring. Making a poor or even marginal shot with a 50-54 flintlock (or anything else) is going to make the bear vindictive.

Dan

While reading the Journals one inserert that I really like was
this "We finally figured out an effective way of killing the great white bears. That is to climb a tree and cry like that of its young. The great bears seem unwilling or unable to climb thereby rearing onto its hind legs at the tree, one only needs to simply shoot it in the head. Thus killing it emmediately."

The fist Grizz that was shot by the expedition simply fell over dead at the report of the rifle. Clark(or Lewis) stated that all the hype about the unkillable Great Bear was just Indian folklore. I think I recall something mentioned about his supperior weapons compared the bows of the indians.

It was the next bear that nearly killed one of them and soaked up many shots.

One thing noticed about the first Griz kill was that they ate it and 2 weeks later, to the day, the men begain getting very sick and complaining of tooth troubles...we now know that this was probly the desease Triccanosess(sp).

I don't recall the men being forbid from shooting the bears but they were told not to waste any more ammo on the geese.
Any one here that has not read them will truly treasure the experiance of reading "Journals of Lewis & Clark" and also "Undanting Courage"

thanks for the info guys I was just wondering how a bear shot "through the lights"6 times could still keep coming after the hunters. Must be real mean bears

Dan Phariss said:

G.Bears that are not severely hurt or incapacitated at the first shot can soak up a lot of lead in subsequent shots from even powerful modern guns like .338 etc before expiring. Making a poor or even marginal shot with a 50-54 flintlock (or anything else) is going to make the bear vindictive.
Dan

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Living right in the middle of brown bear country, I'm always concerned when folks poke them with marginal rounds. Heck, even marginal shooting with potent rounds is a problem. The hapless hunters wander off to their distant homes with a hair-raising tale to tell, but meanwhile they leave behind a wounded bear where people live. Really chaps my behind, but some of them head home without telling anyone that they have left us a legacy.

We've got a 500-600 pound 4-year old hanging around the house right now, evidenty a male that forgot to den up. From all I can tell, he's not been wounded or anything, but he sure is getting hungry. Unless he leaves on his own, trouble is almost sure to follow in the next few days. Smokehouseman is checking him out right now, and I better go join him. With my 375 H&H and not my 58 cal smoke pole.

Fun to read about those guys sticking grizzlies with their muzzleloaders, but dang it all. If you're tempted to try it, be sure to head out somewhere a long, long ways from houses in case it doesn't work out for you.

From what I recall, their attitudes changed about the "white bears" through the trip. They went from excited to eventually dreaded the beasts. They learned to respect them.

My favorite is when the bear chased several of them and they jumped off a cliff into the river to escape.

Pssst..I think its Lewis

BrownBear said:

Dan Phariss said:

G.Bears that are not severely hurt or incapacitated at the first shot can soak up a lot of lead in subsequent shots from even powerful modern guns like .338 etc before expiring. Making a poor or even marginal shot with a 50-54 flintlock (or anything else) is going to make the bear vindictive.
Dan

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Living right in the middle of brown bear country, I'm always concerned when folks poke them with marginal rounds. Heck, even marginal shooting with potent rounds is a problem. The hapless hunters wander off to their distant homes with a hair-raising tale to tell, but meanwhile they leave behind a wounded bear where people live. Really chaps my behind, but some of them head home without telling anyone that they have left us a legacy.

We've got a 500-600 pound 4-year old hanging around the house right now, evidenty a male that forgot to den up. From all I can tell, he's not been wounded or anything, but he sure is getting hungry. Unless he leaves on his own, trouble is almost sure to follow in the next few days. Smokehouseman is checking him out right now, and I better go join him. With my 375 H&H and not my 58 cal smoke pole.

Fun to read about those guys sticking grizzlies with their muzzleloaders, but dang it all. If you're tempted to try it, be sure to head out somewhere a long, long ways from houses in case it doesn't work out for you.

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You just got to use a bigger round ball. If a 69 caliber would do for Indian big game, like Elephant, it should work for bear as well. With a hard ball like W-W or harder and 150 grs of powder in my 16 bore I would shoot any bear so long as I get to put it where I want. As in not shooting too far 70 yards max maybe and waiting for the right shot.
As I recall one of the L&C bears was causing trouble till one of the party gave him a .67 ball from a musket. Round balls once over 400 grains or so are not like shooting a 54 or 58. They get more energy from grain of powder and make big deep holes.
Americans were/are notorious for shooting balls that the British would consider too small for the game. To them the 54 was a marginal deer stalking rifle. Good for little more than small game. The 58 was better and the 20 bore was better still decent deer caliber. Forsythe stated (circa 1860) that the 16 bore was about as small as anyone would use for dangerous game and he hunted India, elephant, tigers and such with a "14 bore" with a "#15 ball". In Africa the 12 bore was pretty small if Elephant was the game. But the African version is a different critter than the Indian.

Where you live if I wanted a ML to hunt with I would make up a 26-30" barreled English sporting rifle to take a .662 or bigger ball. I don't think a ball over 10 or 11 to the pound would be needed. Correspondents in Northern BC use rifles of this type on large game and are well pleased with them. No reports of shooting G bears with them but the interior bears are generally smaller than what you have.
If you have ever read John Taylor's "Pondoro" you should remember what he said about ML RB guns. He killed 13 "good bulls" and several rhino with a 10 bore smoothie in the 1930s.

Dan

I sure am glad my glasses were lying to me.

When I first saw the title of this topic I thought it said

Lois and Clark
and I was expecting to see something about Lois Lane and Clark Kent with her snuggling up to him and opening his shirt.
This would be followed by, "What the H... is this blue suit that you have on?
Are you trying to impersonate Superman?"
:rotf:

Be nice

Dan Phariss said:

Where you live if I wanted a ML to hunt with I would make up a 26-30" barreled English sporting rifle to take a .662 or bigger ball. I don't think a ball over 10 or 11 to the pound would be needed. Correspondents in Northern BC use rifles of this type on large game and are well pleased with them. No reports of shooting G bears with them but the interior bears are generally smaller than what you have.
Dan

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We read bear shooting with muzzleloaders pretty much the same way. The two guys I know setting up to do it don't know each other, but going at the process independently came up with 72 cal for the rifles they're building, along with balls cast from alloys akin to wheelweights in hardness.

I'm acquainted with both efforts because both have asked me to back them up with my 375. I'm getting a little old for high speed tree climbing, so I'm having to give it real serious thought before answering. :shocked2:

I think my best big bear gun would be my 20 bore swivel breech. It's built on the Jaeger model with 24 1/2" barrels and I can get off two shots without dropping the rifle from my shoulder. The barrel release is inside the trigger guard and just pushes forward to release the barrels for rotating so I don't have to change my trigger hand grip at all. I can fire two shots in about the same time it takes to fire two shots from a modern bolt gun and accuracy is good enough to get the job done if I do my part. Having my old '42 Springfield slung and ready as backup would still be a comfort though.

You know, I've never considered a swivel breech- always been looking at doubles. But the need for follow-up shots AND backup is pretty clear on our big bears, even with modern large bore rifles.

Ever watch a tape, especially with sound, of a guided hunt? Usually there's barely a second passing between the client's shot and the guide's follow-up. If the bear doesn't drop instantly at the shot, the guide is shooting.

Not necessarily an indication of poor shooting by the client, rather it's an indicator that the bears often die slow, even after a good hit with a big caliber. The guide's "follow up" shots come fast because they really don't want to follow that bear deep into the alders to confirm that it's dead. Even dead bears can move a long, long ways in 5 or 10 seconds.

freedom475 said:

...
Any one here that has not read them will truly treasure the experiance of reading "Journals of Lewis & Clark" and also "Undanting Courage"

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loved them both!

I remember the first time I saw a skinned out bear--it was a small black bear, and I recall being very impressed with the amount of muscle packed onto its frame. I expect a big brown bear would really get your attention!

There are a few types of swivel breech mechanisms around and they are all good. I went with the type that has the release inside the triggerguard because it doesn't require repositioning my trigger hand at all. It has swamped barrels to keep the weight down and all in all is a handy little gun.

About everything on this thread is hear say at best. The posts that say what calibers will take bears are interesting. How many bears have you knocked over with a PRB? How big of bears are we talking?
I asked a friend of mine that HAS killed big bears. He said "shooting big bears with a PRB would be crazy" Here is a picture of him with some bears. He is a taxidermist and he sets up hunts. He is a short guy, about 5'3" but these are BIG bears. I would not shoot a bear with a PRB. If I did shoot one it would be with a heavy conical, and I would want the guide to back me up with a BIG centerfire. Ron

Yup, those look like my neighbors. I'm 6'4" and they don't seem any smaller to me. The youngster running around the neighborhood right now would probably top 6' if he stood up on his hind legs. And he's only a 3-year old.

And you're right about the guesswork on killing brown bear with a PRB. That's why I'm pretty hesitant to be on hand if either of my friends try it, even with my 375 H&H for company. I'm betting that old veteran rifle would get some shooting, but when I've followed up a wounded bear in thick alders, it wasn't the least bit fun.

Great photo. Kinda makes me laugh any time I see mounts of snarling bears, though. Those I know only stand up if they're trying for a better look, and likely to turn and run the other way if they don't like what they see or smell. The two on the left are just right, and hats off to your friend. The other three are pretty fanciful, but based on the first two, I bet he was told to do them that way.

When they're pizzed enough to be growling and snarling, they're on all fours with their head close to the ground, standing a little sideways to you with their teeth popping and big long goobers of white slobber flinging out of their mouth. Acourse, that wouldn't look worth a darn on a mount.

I haven't shot a brown bear with a patched ball and I don't believe that I said that I did. But through the past couple of hundred years I expect that a good number of frontiersmen did. Lewis and Clark had no idea what they were dealing with when they first met the grizzlies. I would think that as folks settled these wilderness areas they learned what was a killing shot and what wasn't. They had to use lead spheres because that is all they had.

I have no way of knowing your friend's experience with and knowledge of muzzleloaders or patched balls so I can't speak to that. I have known a lot of experienced hunters and shooters who were surprised at the accuracy a muzzleloader could achieve and the amount of penetration a heavy lead ball can make. They simply had no experience with them. But they would tell anyone who would listen that these old guns were not accurate or powerful enough to hunt with. Perhaps that isn't the case here--but it often is.

That is a wonderful photograph, by the way!