• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

flints?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rev_jch

32 Cal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
I was wondering what kind of flints should I use for my cabela's (pedersoli) kentucky rifle? English or american, also what size, the ones cabela's sells are 5/8 x 13/16. The english ones I am looking at are (tom fuller's) 5/8 x 3/4? Which would probably be best?

Thanks
John
 
You'll never go wrong with Tom Fuller's, English flints. They're GREAT & come in sizes to fit any locks!
Daryl
 
you have the Pedersoli Kentucky or the Frontier rifle also sold by Cabela's as the Blue Ridge? If it is the Frontier/Blue Ridge you will need 7/8" flints for it. If it is the Kentucky i believe they take a 3/4". I know the lock on the Blue Ridge is a good sparker, not sure about the Kentucky. I bought one of the Kentucky's once from Cabela's and sent it back to them the day after it got here. The vent was clear at the front edge of the pan, and nearly half covered by the pan. I knew it was going to have ignition problems, so i just packed it up and mailed it back. The Blue Ridges i have had on the other hand had good vent placement and were fast firing. As for the type of flints, everyone seems to get good results with the Black English flints.You can get them from John and Linda at October Country, as well as T.O.W. and other places. I think they are cheaper at October Country though. Good luck and have a blast with the flinter. ::
 
Measure the width of the frizzen. That's the width flint you need. You want the inner edge of the flint NO CLOSER to the barrel that the inside edge of the frizzen. If it strikes the barrel it will not only gouge the barrel, but slow down the hammer fall and possibly misfire.

Go with the English flints. It's good to be patriotic and loyal, but geology and craftsmanship is against us. American flints are actually milled Novaculite and not real flint at all - same as an Arkansas sharpening stone. Flint is cryptocrystalline silica (a type of quartz) and we have loads of it in America, it just got scatterred by glaciation and isn't in a nice ancient sea bottom chalk matrix like England is blessed with. That, and we don't have a knapping 'factory' like Tom Fuller (I hope he has a slew of apprentices).

Flint and Novaculite are both primarily silicon dioxide, but then so is glass and obsidian
 
wow! Am I confused!! One of the people from cabela's says I should be using a 1/2 x 5/8 flint???
 
If it came with an owner's manual, it's probably listed in there...but the bottom line is to measure the width of the frizzen and order that size...flint sizes go by width... 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", etc...and you want a flint that scrapes as much of the face of the frizzen as possible to increase the odds of the most sparks possible for ignition.

Example: TC recommends the small 5/8" in their locks, but the frizzen is 3/4" wide, so I switched to 3/4" flints, they make a lot more sparks, the larger flints seem stronger physically, and they have a longer life
 
How wide is your frizzen?
flintlock2.jpg


A flint any wider is wasted (and can gouge the barrel as mentioned before) and will wear poorly, and a flint any narrower isn't exposing as much potential sparking surface as you could be using (we all want all we can get).

I don't know the dimensions of the lock you have, but 1/2" is a pistol or tiny rifle size flint width. Flint length is trickier. Some flints are square, some are rectangular. You can add depth with a flint lead or leather clamped in the jaws (see image). The longet the flint, the more time it spends in contact with the frizzen on the downstroke. WITH AN UNLOADED AND UNPRIMED RIFLE, close the frizzen and release the hammer with your thumb holding it so you can slowly lower it through the firing cycle. Watch how the frizzen opens and note where the flint begins and ends on relation to the frizzen. Some locks/flints have a longer and smoother interplay with the flint inserted upside down. If, at any time, it balks or stops the flint is too long and will probably end up shattering (such locks are labeled "flint-eaters" - igniton is good but flints get expensive and the flint usually fails at the start of a match or when the turty-point buck is in your sights). If you find a source of a flint that works well, buy lots. Track of the Wolf and G.Gedny Godwin have been good to me in the past.

Three things that help with flintlocks:

1.) Give the rifle (or musket) a name (i.e. Ticklicker, Boulivar Evil, Lucifer, Blunderpotz, Sally, etc.).
b.) Talk sweetly to it, praise it. Begging sometimes helps.
iii). Wipe the frizzen between shots with a dry patch or piece of cotton tick.

Same as with an original VW Beetle. You gotta coax 'em and learn their quirks and when you do you'll grow attached like with nothing else.

A clerk at Cabela's (no offense) is one step above a cashier at Walmart or the fry guy at Micky D's. Some of them pick up knowledge as they go, but there is no Flintlock 101 course they attend at Cabela U.
 
Here, I just stole this for you. (I use beeswax instead of Vaseline as a pan sealer for water-resisting). NEVER oil or grease the frizzen face.


TUNING THE FLINT LOCK

Wayne Anderson

GEOMETRY
When flintlock geometry is referred to, it's usually one of two areas, cock to pan or frizzen snap over.

The Cock Area When the cock is in the down position the shoulder of the cock should rest on the lock plate and the tumbler should have slight clearance from the bridle. The bridle is the backup stop in case the cock or tumbler arbor fails. The bridle must stop the tumbler rotation before the mainspring comes off the tumbler hook. The tip of the main spring should be well supported by the tumbler hook in the down position . The cam/hook of the tumbler is designed so that it will transfer the pressure of the main spring with maximum force at the end of its travel. With the hammer down the mainspring acts near the end of the cam with greatest leverage. As the hammer is pulled back the tip of the mainspring moves along the cam toward the axis of the tumbler, decreasing the leverage. The stirrups in later locks reduced friction by changing from sliding friction to rolling friction. If the main spring is not retained on the hook it can splinter the wood in the bottom of the lock mortise area if the cock arbor fractures. Locks with stirrups also have this hook to catch the main spring if the stirrup breaks during cocking.

The flat surface of the pan and the bottom jaw of the cock are your main reference lines for lock geometry. At half cock, the jaw of the cock is parallel to the pan. In the down position a line extended from the bottom jaw points into the center of the pan, making approximately a 40-degree angle with it. The cock must fit very snugly on the tumbler arbor, with no play or free movement. The cock should not touch the lock plate any time during its movement until the shoulder contacts the plate. The jaws of the cock should be long enough to securely grip the flint. The cock screw is set well back in the cock and the screw top must not contact the frizzen during its movement.

The top jaw has the top slanted to the back and down slightly so that the jaw has a more effective grip at its outer edge. The throw of your lock (flint) is the distance from the center of the tumbler arbor, perpendicular to the bottom jaw.



Frizzen Area The frizzen must cover the pan in the closed position so that no light shows through when viewed from the touch hole side. The tail of the frizzen should only contact the frizzen spring, not the lock plate. The nose of the frizzen should hold the frizzen in contact with the flint until the flint just passes its bottom edge then it should snap the frizzen into its full open position so that it does not block the path of any spark into the pan. Frizzen spring tension is a balance of the frizzen spring and the main spring force. The main spring must be able to scrape the flint across the frizzen with small loss of speed while the frizzen spring maintains firm contact between the flint and frizzen. The flint produces sparks by scraping off white hot particles of metal from the frizzen. On a correctly hardened frizzen these will be abundant and white hot. On a soft frizzen there is not enough friction during this cutting action and particle do not become hot enough. On a frizzen that is too hard particles cannot be scraped off. A correctly hardened frizzen will usually test in the 55+ range on the Rockwell scale. This is about the same hardness as a quality knife blade.


FRICTION-POLISHING

Friction is the major enemy in every lock. Lock filers went to great lengths to reduce friction wherever possible. The stirrup main spring reduced friction by changing sliding friction to rolling friction. Roller were placed on the frizzen spring, again changing sliding friction to rolling friction, slight shoulders were added to the tumbler and other parts creating "Frictionless" locks. Any place on your lock where metal touches metal should be polished and lubricated. The lock plate itself should be perfectly flat inside. The tumbler should be held by the lock plate and bridle so that it rides on only those two points (lock plate arbor and bridle) or as close to that state as you can get it. If either the plate tumbler hole or bridle hole is oversize this may be impossible without parts modification or replacement. You can polish anything you choose for appearance. Polished surfaces are more resistant to rust. Caution: over polishing can reduce the size and strength of parts.

FLINTS

Knapped flints are preferred to cut agate. Bevel up or down doesn't seem to matter, use whichever gives the best spark in your lock. Bevel down can give a longer scraping pass on the frizzen surface of some locks. The flint's initial strike should not be at 90 degrees to the frizzen face, but at a slightly greater angle, a scraping action is desired, 90 degree angle will just shorten flint life. The flint needs to be held very firmly in the cocks jaws. Two materials are used for this, leather and lead. Leather is the most common choice. Lead was used mainly in large military locks. Leather has the advantage of holding the flint firmly yet providing a slight cushioning to the initial contact, which can extend the life of flints. It is the scraping action that causes most of the sparks. To hold the flint firmly, it needs to be placed as deeply into the cocks jaws as possible. This distance can be increased by notching the leather or lead for the jaw screw. However, flint contact with the screw can cause notching on the rear of your flint. It is not traditional but it improves the rigidity of the flint if it is glued to the leather. The glue must be water and solvent resistant. The best I've found for this use is the gel type superglue's. Cock screws that are drilled are easier to tighten without damaging the screw. The slot was probably used more frequently in early locks. The slot on cock screws is not tapered like our modern screwdrivers. Using a modern screwdriver will distort this slot. Use a flat piece of metal or file a screwdriver to fit your cock slot.

Keep the flint sharp and clean. Cleanliness is an important part of reliable ignition. Make wiping the flint and frizzen clean part of your reloading practice. Watch for "Shiners" when you wipe powder residue off. Knap any shiners as they appear! Shiner is the term for the dull area that develop on your flint from use. They usually have a shiney metalic color to them, therefore the term - Shiners.

There is a real simple way to re-knap your flint faces. But it does require that you make a small tool. Take a large nail (about 3" to 3 1/2" common nail) and grind or cut the point off square. Then at the side of the now square tip take a file and cut a ledge about 1/8" back from the tip and about 1/2 way through the nail so that you create a "step" at the tip and on the side of it.

nail.jpg


Next file on the side of the nail below the step so that the "front" of the step is flat and not the nail's rounded surface. (but don't go too far, leave at least 1/16" of step) Harden with a propane torch and quick water quench.

Take the nail to your flint while the flint is still in the jaws of your hammer. Cock the hammer. Put the step on the front edge of the flint, angle the nail forward towards the frizzen about 30 degrees off vertical (with respect to the flint) Tap the nail head with a small hammer just a light tap, not hard. A small piece of flint should flake off, and if you continue across the front of your flint it will re-sharpen the edge.


PANS, POWDERS AND PRICKS

Priming the pan - The pan should never be filled to the point where powder covers the touch hole. If the touch hole is covered, powder will have to burn down until it uncovers the touch hole before the main charge can ignite. The key is to be sure that the touch hole is clear so that the hot gas flash can get through the touch hole to the main charge. A technique used is to carefully place the charge away from the hole and not fill the pan completely(1/3 to 1/2), then to tap the rifle on the lock side just before firing to jar the powder away from the touch hole. Several late flintlock period manufactures even sloped the cavity in the pan slightly away from the touch hole. For quicker ignition use the least amount of powder that will ignite your main charge. Experiment to determine this amount.

Powder used in priming should be 4 F or finer. Fine powder ignites easier/quicker.

Vent Pricks serve two very important purposes. One is to clear the vent of debris, the second is to open a channel for the hot gas flash to the main charge. For reliable ignition it is common practice to insert the vent prick just before priming the pan and closing the frizzen. Some also force a small amount of priming powder into the vent with the prick, being sure to insert the prick at the finish, far enough so that the open channel is maintained. Since fine powder ignites easier, this small amount can't hurt and actually helps ignite the main charge. You are not trying to create a powder train. You are trying to place a few grains of fine powder into the surface of the channel that you created in the powder with the prick. You are not reducing, blocking or changing the channel in any way. Try it both ways and use what works for you, the important point here is to keep that flash channel open! Vent pricks made of bronze welding rod are recommended because bronze won't wear the metal in the touch hole like a steel prick will. Pricks that have 4 sides work well as the sharp edges help clear the fouling in the touch hole.

TOUCH HOLES

Size Touch holes generally fall in the 1/16 (.0625) to 5/64 (.078) inch range. Some preferring slightly large for smooth bore. The maximum is considered to be 1/10 (0.1)

Location A straight line across the flats of the pan should split the center of the touch hole. Or if not spilt by this line be just slightly below it. A hole placed too low will tend to get covered with powder causing erratic/slow ignition, too high can also cause erratic ignition by blocking some of the heat flash. A touch hole that is too high will sometime work best with a full pan of powder, often a poorly placed touch hole will need to be replaced by a touch hole liner.

Touch Hole Liners One of the problems with a drilled flash hole is that it results in a relatively long small passage from the pan to the powder charge. Touch hole liners are used for several reasons:

a.) To replace enlarged worn touch holes. Wear and corrosion are the main enemies of your touch hole. Liners are made of hard corrosion resistant materials.

b.) To get the main charge closer to the priming gas heat flash. Touch hole liners can be drilled concave on the inside to allow the main powder charge to get closer to the outside of the barrel and create a shorter path for the hot gas to travel.

c.) To correct poor hole placement.

d.) To be used as an aid in cleaning.

e.) Liners allow removal so that a small amount of powder can be put behind the ball, when a ball is loaded without powder by mistake.

FRIZZENS

The sear and frizzen should work freely when their respective pivot screws are turned in as far as possible. Screw threads should not extend into the pivot area. Polish the pivot area on screws. The frizzen face should be smooth but not polished. A rough face will quickly dull flints. The frizzen should test at a Rockwell Hardness of around 56. A clean frizzen surface sparks best, wipe it often.

SPRINGS

Springs are the heart of your lock. Polish all contact points. (Examples - main spring tip, tumbler hook surface, top surface of frizzen spring.) Make sure that the nose of the mainspring has clearance in the tumbler at the fully cocked position. Polish the springs themselves, a polished spring is less apt to fracture. Any scratches or flaws are potential fracture points. Caution: polish only, do not reduce the strength of the spring. Make sure that the spring does not bind anywhere during its movement. There should be approximately a 1/3 to 2/3 balance between the main spring and frizzen spring (by feel or trigger pull gauge).

WET WEATHER

a.) Use Vaseline to seal the edges of the frizzen and the frizzen-to-barrel line. The vee where the barrel and stock or lock plate meet can channel water directly into the pan. Fill this vee for about 10 to 18 inches in front of the pan. Use wax sparingly as over waxing can hinder lock speed, especially in cold weather.

b.) Change priming powder frequently.

c.) Use a Cow's Knee cover during wet weather.

d.) Carry in a manner to protect the lock from the weather.

Special Thanks to Craig Baker and Kevin Richard-Morrow for their help in preparing this FAQ.


Bibliography
Recreating the American Longrifle
Wm. Buchele & G. Shumway 1976

The Complete Rehabilitation of the Flintlock Rifle
T. B. Tryon Reprint 1972
 
My flints from TOTW have fired dozens of times without fail or breakage. Could be my sweet R.E.Davis lock or the flint or both. Hey Stumpkiller, I've gotta '65 Microbus and I know whatcha mean 'bout learnen those quirks.
 
TOW recomends 7/8" for the Blue Ridge in their catalog.I just orderd 6 of the Tom Fuller flints but have not had a chance to try them yetHope to be able to try them out this week.
 
thanks to everyone for your insight!! It is much appreciated!!!

sincerely,
John
 
Don't think I saw this in the many good[url] answers...in[/url] addition to wiping the frizzen between shots, wipe the edge of the flint, too. It has helped me a lot. Hank
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is sad, but funny. When I asked everyone about what flint to use I had not received the rifle yet. Well I did last night and unfortunately The flint that came installed was too long and the frizen was resting against the flint. Who knows how long it had been that way, but it was long enough that the flint had cut a groove into the frizen. It was bad enough that I can catch my finger nail in it! You could not even close the frizen with it on half cock!!The owners manaul did not even tell you what size flint to use!!! Im sending it back to Cabela's to have it replaced.
Doe anyone out there own one of the cabela's (perdersoli made) kentucky flintolocks and know what flint to use?
 
I'm shocked that a frizzen simply resting on the edge of a flint would put a groove in the face of the flint that you could catch a fingernail on...are you sure this isn't a used rifle?
 
Could be a used frizzen installed on a new rifle...

Other industries salvage returns, why not firearm manufactures...
 
I was a little shocked myself. I noticed the hammer spring and the frizen spring were extremely hard to move, pull back, etc. It (the flint) cut a pretty good groove into the frizen. I was not very happy to spend that much money and have a problem like that.
 
I almost forgot, the box it came in was still sealed by the factory tape. I was the first one to open it!!
 
rev....you WANT a strong main spring in a flintlock. They should be harder to pull back than a percussion lock, for three reasons; a faster lock time, plenty of strength for scraping the flint against the frizzen and enough energy to force the frizzen open thus exposing the prime to the sparks.

Regarding that groove from the flint....wait until you shoot your rifle 50 or so times then look at the frizzen. My suspiscion is that with the flint improperly installed it simply banged against the frizzen during handling and shipping. The flint is harder than the frizzen, it has to be to work, therefore the discernible groove.

Bottom line is still if you weren't satisfied you should have sent it back, as you did....but I believe I would have tried it first. I guess what I'm saying mostly is don't be surprised if the next rifle comes to you with the same conditions.

Vic
 
HI rev.
I have a cabela Blue Ridge flintlock. The best and fast ignition was with 7\8 flints.
 
Back
Top