Trap Gun

Feltwad said:

Zonie
Never believe everything you read in books because there is a large decree that is not true there is a lot of writers of these books that copy what has been said 50 to 100 years previous whose then writers have copied it from books say 150 plus before which finish with a result far from the truth . The best research is what you do yourself from original records such has the Census, patent officers and telephone directories ,from the late 70,s I did 25 years research in the north of the UK makers and entered over 300 known gunmaker from the Georgian period to the present ,Out of the research there was many untruths of what many top writers had wrote because most of their information was only copied from previous books
Feltwad

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Personally, I don't see one thing the author wrote that doesn't make perfect sense.

So, you are saying flintlocks weren't used in pigeon shoots up thru the 1820's? The guns they shot weren't large bore shotguns ranging from 4 bore to 12 bore?
People did not bet on the outcome of those pigeon shoots? Were people following 1830 many who participated in pigeon shoots were still using flintlocks? You are suggesting that the Manton style elevated rib didn't help pigeon shooters hit their targets?

I'm anxiously waiting for you to tell me what errors were made in the quotes I gave.

Zonie said:

Personally, I don't see one thing the author wrote that doesn't make perfect sense.

So, you are saying flintlocks weren't used in pigeon shoots up thru the 1820's? The guns they shot weren't large bore shotguns ranging from 4 bore to 12 bore?
People did not bet on the outcome of those pigeon shoots? Were people following 1830 many who participated in pigeon shoots were still using flintlocks? You are suggesting that the Manton style elevated rib didn't help pigeon shooters hit their targets?

I'm anxiously waiting for you to tell me what errors were made in the quotes I gave.

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What I said was do not believe every thing you read in books , I did a lot of research into this subject and books can make people think what is wrote is the truth but not always and this subject is one so I will not take it any further
Feltwad

While I see little fault with Richard Akehurst's summery. It is just that. 'a summary'. I know Felt Wad of old he is a very dedicated 'student of arms' in both wild fowling & the modern version of live bird trap shooting . The group of dedicated Pigeon guns plus the tube lock all speak volumes as to his knowledge in these area's , He is besides a pest control professional shooter .. I believe what he is trying to say is it is inevitable earlier writers have been quoted & copied whitingly or other wise so that not all books are as reliable as say Mr Akehurst. .The modern MLAIC International shooters do indeed have both flint & percussion matches so you have flintlock guns in use. But historically the sport of live pigeon shooting would have soon made the use of flintlocks less suited and its self was I believe a creation of a sport (Pigeons might disagree ?) only practical by using the new' Detonaters' . I made at least three of the guns the UK team shot at the first US International at Quantico Marine base in 1981 plus numbers for the mostly clay shooters of Sheffield Branch MLAGB though they used them for any rough shooting or' Beaters day' pheasant shoots up at Barbon Manor . Most wanted a rod on their half stocked guns, but one non live game shooter had just a ' pigeon gun' style. They where all 12 bores using Bader( Probably Ex Shaw) US barrels though some have NZ made ones , mostly with Nocks breaching. I have three or four' tubes' might suite Fez and suitable locks & mounts some breached & proofed at Brum just cylinder bores up to 36" .I have zero interest or appreciation for the in line abominations that might pass at F' ship but would NOT pass MLAIC scrutiny the criteria being guns 'Must be In the spirit of the Original'. Hard to document Zip guns !.
Regards Rudyard

Thanks Rudyard I am glad someone understands I feel that the forums have gone downhill when they are for all original muzzle systems and not just for the Flintlock and reproes . Has from now my activity in these forums will be little if any some will miss my threads but others will not
Feltwad

In case you didn't notice, the Forum's rules say we do not discuss modern In line muzzleloaders here so may I assume we are not among the forums you allude to?

Zonie
I do not think I said anything about in lines I am from the old school of original muzzle loaders and for in lines and also repros I do not appreciate has most of the reproes are just a cheap copy of the original .
Feltwad

Dear Zonie .You seem to misunderstand . Felt Wad certainly dos'nt champion in lines or even most modern replicas any more than I do .Their is a place of course for factory replicas. even the CVA TC sorts . I am quite unfamiliar with them all .As most guns I either made anew or used up old parts or where /are original pieces .So I concede I too must be' Old school' . But it dosn't trouble me any to be so. Any respectable muzzle loader is fine by me .There may be a place for modern affairs but non Ide want to go too .I regard all such as abominations fit only & made for cheating into extra season times . Unbecoming too and unworthy of the consideration of a Sportsman along with camo, rolling pin size telescopic sights, & tripods . We are not at war with our quarry!

(I used to be a deer culler for NZ Forest Service .in 1968. Then we Where' at war'. Deer & most four legged introduced game animals are deemed eco pests and have NO closed seasons with the deer!, If I had an old 303 as the department would'nt have favourable views re me using a muzzle loader,! But its all I use today )
While you see deer on US roadsides safe enough till seasons. No such are seen in NZ all the dozey ones killed off years ago and Deer here "Graze at 50 mile an hour " Well not literally but are bred cautious as evolution would dictate . Anyway I digress , in short .I don't think you quite follow where Felt Wad is at. He certainly isn't tilting at you just the in lines and some modern MLs .We all have our preferences and values .I hav'nt been on MLF that long and find some posters I'me not in tune with but then many others I am completely in tune with & Felt Wad is one of them. Regards Rudyard

Poor pigeons!

+ = ☠

It seems I did misunderstand Feltwad's comment when he said,

" Thanks Rudyard I am glad someone understands I feel that the forums have gone downhill when they are for all original muzzle systems and not just for the Flintlock and reproes ...".

I initially took the comment to imply that our forum permits modern muzzleloaders to be discussed. That is why I made the reply that I did. My apologies to Mr. Feltwad for my misunderstanding.

That said, I have several college degrees and I am fully aware of the need to do proper research. To do this correctly, one must judge each piece of information on its own merits. As you know, part of this judging means one looks to see if the author of a book includes a bibliography to support his work.
Mr. Akehurst's book, which I quoted a small part of, does just that and I consider his writings valuable.

With that out of the way, the real reason I posted the writings of Mr Akehurst was I thought it would be interesting to the other forum members.
I am sure some of them didn't know there was wide, often high priced betting on the outcome of the pigeon shoots. Or that the contestants were using very large bore guns fully capable of taking down geese. Or that the reason it is called "trap shooting" is because the pigeons were placed in a "box trap" some distance from the firing line, with a lid that was removed by pulling a long rope to release the bird(s).

Dear Zonie Oh good very pleased you now understand his stance .I don't fully know the historical facts but believe it started with the Rock doves in holes covered by old hats pulled away by strings then no doubt more purpose made traps came in . The birds I seem to recall where blue rock doves if likely the ever numerous ferrol ' Belfry' sort would do and hardly be much missed then as now plus someone got free or cheap meat so it wasn't all the horror moderns might see it .As purpose made glass bottles filled with feathers came later and where the disk like clay comes in you've have to ask Felt Wad . But we did used to glue beer mat sized bottoms so that they could be filled with feathers or confetti type stuff so that a hit gave you a nice effect. Even now a hit just enough to break a piece of the clay is described as "Thas feathered it "(Or at least on Derbyshire moors !) behind the' Peacock' at Owler bar ,The paddocks being originally for the Stage coach horses behind the Pub . That large sums hung on a reliable shot the copper cap was only rivalled by the Tube locks which were more certain and used by wild fowlers & trap shooter alike the quality seems allways high no rustic shotgun or cut down musket would do . Trap guns being very much a horse for a course . I'me sure Felt Wad could elaborate far better than I can on this topic .
Regards Rudyard

Rudyard
Yes I could elaborate but what is the use on this topic I can go back 5 generations in our family who were all live pigeon shots my grandfather was north of England champion before it became illegal in 1924 ,I still have his guns and his traps and practice sparrow traps
Feltwad

Zonie said:

It seems I did misunderstand Feltwad's comment when he said,

" Thanks Rudyard I am glad someone understands I feel that the forums have gone downhill when they are for all original muzzle systems and not just for the Flintlock and reproes ...".

I initially took the comment to imply that our forum permits modern muzzleloaders to be discussed. That is why I made the reply that I did. My apologies to Mr. Feltwad for my misunderstanding.

That said, I have several college degrees and I am fully aware of the need to do proper research. To do this correctly, one must judge each piece of information on its own merits. As you know, part of this judging means one looks to see if the author of a book includes a bibliography to support his work.
Mr. Akehurst's book, which I quoted a small part of, does just that and I consider his writings valuable.

With that out of the way, the real reason I posted the writings of Mr Akehurst was I thought it would be interesting to the other forum members.
I am sure some of them didn't know there was wide, often high priced betting on the outcome of the pigeon shoots. Or that the contestants were using very large bore guns fully capable of taking down geese. Or that the reason it is called "trap shooting" is because the pigeons were placed in a "box trap" some distance from the firing line, with a lid that was removed by pulling a long rope to release the bird(s).

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thanks for that brief history lesion on TRAP SHOOTING. I have never known that? I always wondered why it was called that? and I am 76+, so again thank you.

There were live pigeon shoots in Shamokin PA in the mid 60's. I was there - top name trap shooters and a lot of big money. I don't think they do it anymore but I found this from 2013 from an animal rights article.

" Pennsylvania remains the only state to regularly hold pigeon shoots,[25] a surprising fact given Pennsylvania’s longstanding history of animal protection. "

Rudyard said:

Dear Zonie Oh good very pleased you now understand his stance .I don't fully know the historical facts but believe it started with the Rock doves in holes covered by old hats pulled away by strings then no doubt more purpose made traps came in ....
Regards Rudyard

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Interesting that you mention that.
Again, quoting from "SPORTING GUNS",

"In the early days it often took place on a suitable field close to a public house; the pigeon was placed in a box trap which was pulled open by a cord when the shooter gave the signal. It is said tht the famous 'Old Hats' Public House, at Ealing, near London, got its name from the use of hats as makeshift traps, placed over small holes in the ground The report of a match, in July 1821, records that the winner of the Crinden medal at the 'Old Hats' Club killed only thirty-two out of sixty birds in spite of the fact that percussion guns of enormous dimensions were being used..." (p 47)

Feltwad is right about the original shotguns and fowlers. Handle an well made original, then pick up a reproduction. The difference is obvious. Of course the old time trapshooters bet on the game, they bet on everything else.

Out of curiosity, I Googled "Old Hat's public house" and this is what I saw.


Unfortunetly, with all of those other buildings around it, it looks like the Pigeon Shooting range is probably shut down.

Do you any of you fellas who shoot trap with muzzleloaders do so along with guys using modern shotguns? If so, does your reloading process flow with the tempo, or is it poor etiquette to make others wait while you reload?

I cant speak for every trap shooter but the two don't mix & don't do in my own experience & I,ve attended International as well as many clay shoots . Each are on its own distinctive plain and on these posts forget the nitro rubbish I will never catch on . A modern goes out to fire 100 streight & is dissapointed if he drops a few . A black powder shooter might shoot a mix of sporting birds ' Driven partridge,'' high Pheasant' & crossing Mallards ect, Ide do a whole day & shoot twenty birds the pace isn't the same . Never bothered for years you cant eat clay pigeons ,
On a rifle range nitro is a bloody nuisance the two don't mix. I've been back at 6oo yards when nitro machine gun men roll up and want to spray the backstop at 100 yards come late go early don't put up or take down targets or flags don't patch. Just seem to like to blaze at tins ,PITAs.! ( You just might think I am a bit predudiced ? )Nothing of the sort ,Ime Very predudicsed ,! Rudyard

I'm sure most of us on this side of the pond would chafe at the bit for an Original Pidgeon gun, but they are few and far between here.

My good friend has shot trap at Friendship and Arizona, his grandson was ranked #1 in Texas.

He builds percussion shotguns, usually 10 or 12 bore, starting with a 36" modern barrel, having it breached, ending up with a 33" full choked gun, no ramrod. It is light, lively and his better ones have a very short hammer throw. He's made over 100.

His personal favorite is a 10 bore, full choke, with a very fast hammer. I used it last year at the Spring shotgun Soiree, but he doesn't use a front bead, so I missed more than my share.

Lots of competitors use a modern break action gun with breached barrels and are impossible to distinguish from modern arms.

One gentleman had a beautiful 20 bore side by side French Flintlock and he broke 24 birds 3xs in a row on the skeet range. By the last round everyone had stopped shooting to watch him. He missed the last bird.

Also a great shot from Missouri had a 4 bore, and murdered the birds with its 2oz load.

I would go to a National shoot and see what they are using. I bought a mule ear 12 bore that was used there.

Almost every trap gun is at least a 12 bore, skeet guns vary.

Btw, they still have bootleg live pidgeon shoots in Texas.... so I'm told. It's like horse racing...a gamblers game

Onojutta said:

Do you any of you fellas who shoot trap with muzzleloaders do so along with guys using modern shotguns? If so, does your reloading process flow with the tempo, or is it poor etiquette to make others wait while you reload?

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I think if you showed up at a regular trap shoot with your muzzleloader you'd get cussed out and/or asked to leave. I've never seen it done, but the smokeless guys are pretty snobbish and it would definitely slow things down.

At the Black powder club I attend there are several loading stations near the line, you load at the covered station, then prime when on the firing line. So you get some exercise walking back and forth 25 times. The skeet range is set up the same way.

They both take quite a bit more time to shoot a round than with modern guns.

Our problem is most members are into rifle and pistol shooting, not enough shotgunners to make the trap and skeet range viable every month.
But hopefully things will change soon.