Do you prefer Real Black Powder or a BP substitute?.........Why?

Leadball loader said:

Black Powder is the only propellant I can use for my flintlock so the subs are out.
I tried pyrodex when it first came out and found the same issues. Gave the stuff away and have enjoyed shooting real gun powder since!
LBL

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Pyrodex is the worst! Rusts worse than anything. Guess if it’s all you have, at least you get to still shoot.

My firearms officer, when I worked at Bisley, refused me an explosives license. (Needed here in the UK) rather than take him to task I told him to shove his license, that I would use pyro. He didn’t know about it and I was pleased to enlighten him. He was later sacked and I got my license. Pyro or black, matters not to me. It goes bang, it makes me smile, I have fun. What more can I say?

toot said:

does any body remember that t the guy who was inventing PYRODEX killed his self in the making of it? and others took over the manufacturing of it.

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No, never heard that, I had always heard that;
The inventor of Pyrodex, Dan Pawlak, died January 27, 1977 when his powder plant blew up.

TFoley said:

This is an excellent read,

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Talks too much about modern muzzleloaders. Which is the biggest problem with most subs, that they were designed for modern muzzleloaders.

I wonder if a poll was taken how many are shooting black that has been (ee-ooo!) graphited.

nkbj said:

I wonder if a poll was taken how many are shooting black that has been (ee-ooo!) graphited.

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THAT is what the 'g' stands for in the powder grading description.

toot said:

does any body remember that t the guy who was inventing PYRODEX killed his self in the making of it? and others took over the manufacturing of it.

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Dan Pawlak didn’t kill himself, but he and a few others died in a fire at the powder plant. Resulted in Pyrodex production moving to another facility.

Carbon 6 said:

No, never heard that, I had always heard that;
The inventor of Pyrodex, Dan Pawlak, died January 27, 1977 when his powder plant blew up.

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That's when I got my first ML and it was a revolver, Navy I think. Bought it used and had to drive a ways to find a place that had real BP. No Pyro to be found. I knew almost nothing about them back then.

TFoley said:

THAT is what the 'g' stands for in the powder grading description.

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https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/when-was-graphite-added-to-black-powder.58868/post-707494

Howard Pippin said:

Good morning. without being too paranoid, I sometimes wonder if there's not a plot underfoot, just by regulations, to stop the use of firearms for anything but government. I understand there's no lead mining in the United States anymore. Probably doesn't make much difference, they're telling us we have to use copper bullets for hunting many places. I can't even use lead pellets to hunt sharp tailed grouse Where I hunt for elk. Now you understand this is out in the hills and not over waterways are anything that would be detrimental. From the things that seem the government do a lot of places Doesn't make me feel any safer.
Squint

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You are not paranoid. Welcome you have awaken to reality.

Carbon 6 said:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/when-was-graphite-added-to-black-powder.58868/post-707494

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Take a few minutes to read this, y'know, just so's you don't think I'm just gum-flappin' here, eh? The answer to your question, if that's what it is, is not something I can tell you. What I CAN tell you is that is is NOT 'added' to Black Powder, no more than talcum powder is added to the composition of a rubber glove. However, this exerpt from a well-respected contributor to the firing line might be of interest to other readers here.

Courtesy of The Firing line site - Black powder grades - The Firing Line Forums

Black powder types are purchased and described by 'grades'. The grades carry numbers or designations to declare their granule sizes, and their
relative speeds of burning. Those numbers are familiar to pyrotechnicians - the famous 'F' numbers. Powders come in two broad basic grades, 'a' grade,
or blasting powder, and 'g' grade, or 'sporting' (shooter's) powder.

The more "F"s in a number, the smaller the granule size, and thus, the faster the powder will burn. So, FFa powder is slower, with a larger
granule size than FFFa, and FFFg is faster than Fg.

The primary difference between 'a' and 'g' grades is processing. Both powders begin as milled 'meal' powder. The potassium nitrate, charcoal and
sulfur are milled into an extremely fine powder. This milling process takes many hours and is usually done by remotely operated equipment due to the
inherent danger of the process. The meal powder is consolidated under high pressure into a 'mill cake' or 'press cake' of solid Black Powder by
hydraulic press. The cake is dried, and crushed into grains. Both types are then screened to remove fines, and to grade the grain sizes.

Subsequent polishing of the powders may be done in a tumbler. Blasting "a" type powders are not usually tumbled. If they are tumbled, it is just for a short time to knock off any sharp an d long projections. Sporting "g" type powders are tumbled with a tiny amount of graphite to polish the grains. The base formula is the same. The graphite is not part of the basic Black Powder formula.

The graphite does act as a burn rate modifier, slowing the burn rate slightly. But primarily, the graphite serves as a surface lubricant to make the powder flow more easily when loading guns. It also serves the cosmetic purpose of making the powder shiny and pretty. The grain sizes are different for sporting and blasting Black Powder.

Note, as shown in the tables below, that it is conventional to express 'g' type powder types with multiple 'F's followed by a lower-case 'g', while 'a' grade powders wear a number before one 'F', and a capital "A". So, "three F g" powder is written as "FFFg", while "three F a" powder is written as "3FA". This convention is thought to have been instituted so that less confusion would exist between powder types. For a given number of Fs, 'a' grade powder is coarser and slower-burning than 'g' grades, notwithstanding the graphite polish on the 'g' types.

Sporting Grade Black Powder -- "g" type powders

Powder Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing

Whaling 32/64" mesh 3% 4 mesh 12%
Lifesaving 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Cannon 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Saluting 10 mesh 3% 20 mesh 12%
Fg 12 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%
FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%
FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
FFFFg 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%
FFFFFg (no longer manufactured by Goex)

_________________________________________________________________________

"A" Blasting Powder
used mostly by pyrotechnicians and for some specialized quarry work

Powder Grade passes screen holding stays on, passing

FA 20/64" mesh 3% 5 mesh 12%
2FA 4 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
3FA 10 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%
4FA 12 mesh 3% 20 mesh 12%
5FA 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
6FA 30 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
7FA 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%
Meal D 40 mesh 3%
Meal F 100 mesh 3%
Meal XF 140 mesh 3%

*** Shows maximum percentages held or passed by the sizing screens.

Commonly used Black Powder Grain Mesh Sizes
GRADE MESH RANGE
FA 3 - 5
2FA 4 - 12
3FA 10 - 16
4FA 12 - 20
5FA 20 - 50
6FA 30 - 50
7FA 40 - 100

Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) mm)

Cannon Grade
1FG 1.68-1.19
2FG 1.19-.59
3FG .84-.29
4FG .42-.15
5FG .149

Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm)
1FA 8.0-4.0
2FA 4.76-1.68
4FA 1.68-.84

5FA .84-.297
7FA .42-.149
Meal D .42
Fine .149

Except where noted in inches, the screen sizes are in wires per inch. The higher the mesh number the smaller the opening size. Note that, for any
given number of "F"s, that the blasting powder is much coarser.

If you ignore the 'F' numbers, for a given measured grain size, the blasting powder burns faster than the graphite-inhibited sporting powder; That's
partly because of the inhibiting action of the graphite, and partly because of the geometry of the grains.

Blasting powder is less dense because the grains are more irregularly shaped; they take up more volume for a given weight of powder. Blasting
powder grains also have a lot of rough edges. Rough edges both inhibit packing of grains, and offer lots of easy-to-ignite sites on each grain.
The combination of more air space between grains, and the rougher surfaces of the grains promotes faster burning. so, what kind of grade do I use for xx caliber ?

GRADE BORE WIDTH EXAMPLE OF GUN

F .50 or greater model cannon; shotguns and rifles over
12 bore (.72 caliber).
FF .36 - .50 large pistols; small rifles
FFF .36 or smaller pistols; derringers
FFFF priming powder for flintlocks.

Sometimes, gunpowder grades are mentioned using P's instead of F's.. So, PP equals 2F and so on..

Carbon 6 said:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/when-was-graphite-added-to-black-powder.58868/post-707494

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Per Jack Kelly's book "Gunpowder", Lammot DuPoint patented an "improvement in gunpowder" in 1857 which consisted of tumbling the grains of BP with graphite for 12 hours - which formed a coating that dramatically reduced the tendency to pickup moisture.

Half-Cocked said:

I remember as a child I used to be able to walk into a Big 5 sporting goods and pick up some 4f for about 12 bucks American. Picked up right off the shelf! What has happened?

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Last time I was at the local Big 5, they had no powder of any kind ... well that's not 100% correct. I think they had a little athletes foot powder ...
No ML arms, no number 10; 11; or musket caps, and maybe 1 box of .490 Hornady balls. Naturally. I need .530's

Even the Dicks and Sportsmans Warehouse in town were low on BP stuff on my last visit.
I was able to get some number 10 caps that fit my T/C and Traditions nipples better than number 11's, a nice "T/C" short starter for a .54 caliber, and a snail type capper.
(oh, and a Traditions "trapper" pistol (I should have spent the extra $15 or so and gotten the Traditions "Kentucky" pistol instead. Much less felt recoil without that daRn bit of stick sticking up. Then again, the Trapper pistol has a hooked breach, so is much easier to clean after shooting, and I can always whittle/carve that daRn bit of stock sticking up off, and "adjust"/thin the grip to fit my hand better.) and a box of Hornady swedged .490 round ball for the trapper pistol.They were all "sold out" of the 45 ACP for my 1911, though.)

ugly old guy said:

Last time I was at the local Big 5, they had no powder of any kind ... well that's not 100% correct. I think they had a little athletes foot powder ...
No ML arms, no number 10; 11; or musket caps, and maybe 1 box of .490 Hornady balls. Naturally. I need .530's

Even the Dicks and Sportsmans Warehouse in town were low on BP stuff on my last visit.
I was able to get some number 10 caps that fit my T/C and Traditions nipples better than number 11's, a nice "T/C" short starter for a .54 caliber, and a snail type capper.
(oh, and a Traditions "trapper" pistol (I should have spent the extra $15 or so and gotten the Traditions "Kentucky" pistol instead. Much less felt recoil without that daRn bit of stick sticking up. Then again, the Trapper pistol has a hooked breach, so is much easier to clean after shooting, and I can always whittle/carve that daRn bit of stock sticking up off, and "adjust"/thin the grip to fit my hand better.) and a box of Hornady swedged .490 round ball for the trapper pistol.They were all "sold out" of the 45 ACP for my 1911, though.)

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Yep times have changed I was about 12 or so at the time and I'm 44 now.

I prefer real BP, Idaho won't let you use pelletized powder in hunting, so I've never used Pyrodex, besides I also use FFFG in a BPCR Sharps, so three guns one powder, keeps it simpler.

toot said:

does any body remember that t the guy who was inventing PYRODEX killed his self in the making of it? and others took over the manufacturing of it.

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Yeah, the plant blew up if I heard it correctly. They didn't quit even then. They must have been pretty determined to get us to buy it. One of it's big selling points was that it could be left in your gun after shooting and you could wait for a few days without cleaning. If you don't remember that, you must not be old enough. I found out the hard way!

Newtire, I think that there is a lot of us who found out the hard way? it would sometimes start to rust be fore you got home. run a patch into the bore and pull it out with red rust on it.

I was really close to buying the Pyrodex brand when I was looking for powder. I found one single bottle of P. I decided I'd better not since I was looking for 2f anyway.

The rust stories on the internet scared me away as well. I went across town to the other dunham's sports to get 2f triple 7 and remington clean bore primers.

The remington's are clearly not clean bore. They leave a nice crusty but easily wiped ring. The triple 7 performs well I feel minus the hydroscopic issues. There is a good bang to it too. I keep some desiccant in the jug.

Still glad I stayed away from Pyrodex. I hear it was available for years along side readily available black powder. They probably had to make some unsubstantiated claims to sell it. Then came along Triple 7 also by Hodgdon. Maybe this was their Pyrodex version 2.

Also heard about imr white hots. Never tried them don't want anything to do with the cva mafia of products. Imr / power belt/ bpi. Not for me.

I shoot only Hogdons Triple 7 in my ML black powder firearms. I have shot several 50s in the past with this powder in my Blue Ridge Pedersoli rifle. It allows several repeat shots before I have to clean the barrel. When I clean the rifle I include vinegar swab after cleaning the barrel, dry patch and then oil the bore. Ignition problems shooting triple 7 were solved by my gunsmith in the breech. My gunsmith shot muzzle loaders and knew how to fix Italian barrel breeches.

Oldhickory said:

My gunsmith shot muzzle loaders and knew how to fix Italian barrel breeches.

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Not sure what is inherently different about Italian barrel breeches, but please tell us how one would ‘fix’ an Italian barrel breech, whatever it is that is wrong with them.