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Mild steel for knives

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Good afternoon, all.

I know, i know, i’ve read 40 posts and internet sites explaining all the reasons why you can’t make a serviceable blade out of steel from the lumber and hardware store. I understand the reasons and the role carbon plays and all that

Okay, i lied, i don’t. But i do realize sometimes you’re smart to take somebody’s word for something.

But the reason for this post is the true fact that a lot of people here don’t always take somebody’s word for how-come-you-can’t and then just have some success in doing it anyway.

So what i want to know is how you made hardware store steel into something you carry into the woods and how it’s working for you. Photos are great.

Thanks for all the responses,

don
 
Don't have the faintest idea where I ever heard of this, nor do I know if this might even work, but there seems to be a certain logic to it.
Start with suitable piece of iron and apply case hardening to one side. Then fold it over, case side in, and hammer weld it shut to a single 'blade' thickness. Shape it as required, go through a hardening process as if you were hardening an ordinary piece, but do not temper it. The iron will not harden, of course, but the case should go to a 'glass' hardness. surrounded with soft iron. You might just end up with a razor thin sharp edge which will stay sharp as the soft iron wears.
I've probably read too many mountain man books, but who knows, it might just work. I do own a commercial Swedish laminated steel knife, so the idea may not be hopeless.
 
Ok, here's my two cents. I don't think you are going to get any takers who successfully made any type of cutting tool out of mild steel. My suggestion is instead of going to the hardware store for mild steel, go to the nearest pawn shop. You will find a multitude of knife steel for cheap, old files and sawblades. I have made some outstanding knives from files. Why would anyone want to invest time and energy to build a knife out of non knife making material when good steel can be had for little or nothing?
 
Don't have the faintest idea where I ever heard of this, nor do I know if this might even work, but there seems to be a certain logic to it.
Start with suitable piece of iron and apply case hardening to one side. Then fold it over, case side in, and hammer weld it shut to a single 'blade' thickness. Shape it as required, go through a hardening process as if you were hardening an ordinary piece, but do not temper it. The iron will not harden, of course, but the case should go to a 'glass' hardness. surrounded with soft iron. You might just end up with a razor thin sharp edge which will stay sharp as the soft iron wears.
I've probably read too many mountain man books, but who knows, it might just work. I do own a commercial Swedish laminated steel knife, so the idea may not be hopeless.
The Japanese in past anyway made their swords similar to this fashion. They would fold over hard and soft steel over and over thousands of times giving the sword the advantage of both steels, being able to sharpen it razor sharp and yet flexible enough to not be brittle.
 
Seen a bunch of them during my working years in prison's, and yes they will get the job done rather well when sticking. But they were referred to as shanks. Some of them fellas were really good at making them.
 
Mild steel will not take a hardness, you need carbon in the steel to achieve hardness, then a temper to regulate it. Most spring steel will make a decent blade, properly heat treated. some like using files, but many have way too much carbon, up to 3%, maybe more. Good steel for knives runs in about the 75- 95 points of carbon range. A point is 1% of 1% in the steel. Mild steel does not have enough to get hard, but a lot of recycled steel is made from old rebar, and other mixed steel. Sometimes you can find a good piece. Steel with molybdenum in the mix will take a hardness through the metal, and subsequently temper differentially as needed. Chromium in the mix makes the steel harder by forming carbides at the molecular level. The Idea is to have a blade with a hard edge to stay sharp, while having a less hard body and spine to withstand shock and stress. Automotive flat spring steel is usually 5160 high carbon steel that makes a hell of a large bowie knife. Tough, yet holds a good edge for rough work. Try it, you'll like it. And if you're picky, you can buy it new.
 
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Mild steel will not take a hardness, you need carbon in the steel to achieve hardness, then a temper to regulate it. Most spring steel will make a decent blade, properly heat treated. some like using files, but many have way too much carbon, up to 3%, maybe more. Good steel for knives runs in about the 75- 95 points of carbon range. A point is 1% of 1% in the steel. Mild steel does not have enough to get hard, but a lot of recycled steel is made from old rebar, and other mixed steel. Sometimes you can find a good piece. Steel with molybdenum in the mix will take a hardness through the metal, and subsequently temper differentially as needed. Chromium in the mix makes the steel harder by forming carbides at the molecular level. The Idea is to have a blade with a hard edge to stay sharp, while having a less hard body and spine to withstand shock and stress. Automotive flat spring steel is usually 5160 high carbon steel that makes a hell of a large bowie knife. Tough, yet holds a good edge for rough work. Try it, you'll like it. And if you're picky, you can buy it new.
I made a bowie knife from an old leaf spring the toughest steel on earth .I wore out a pile of grinding stones sanding belts discs and files. the knife will last ten thousand years. leaf spring that are 60 years old outside all that time only get very little surface rust easily brushed off. I never saw a leaf spring rot thru
 

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I have only made a few knives; experimented with different things, but I will defend a knife made from mild steel For most people, if you are just skinning a critter. If they are sharpened with a more jagged edge and are only used for skinning, they will go quite a ways before dulling, and are easy touched up with just a kitchen type sharpener. these types of knives are relatively cheap, (such as a hammer forge butcher knife), and if you lose it, or forget it at the field dress site, it's not hard to replace. I do have some real good knives. They work very well but are beasts to sharpen. I'm lucky to skin one deer or antelope every other year. Once when I was a kid, I knew of an old German butcher That skinned a beef with a plowshare to prove it could be done. As a lad I used to trap beaver and They really have tight skin, and I can guarantee that it takes a very good small knife. An older fellow I know used to make beaver skinning knives out of planer blades. He had one of those sandstone knife sharpener's that you sat on and peddled, and the Knives were so hard it wouldn't touch them.
Squint
 
You can nail your bowie into a telephone pole. I'm told the only steel tougher than leaf spring on a car is axle steel. I tried forging a piece of axle by hand, 4lb hammer. Couldn't hardly dent it and it was hotter than cherry red. It would make good stone chisels, climbing pitons, etc., if you have the stamina to beat on it long enough, LOL! Squint, planer blades are really good hard steel it has to be very high carbon to stand up to all that merciless cutting. The mild steel will work, somewhat; it's just a matter of performance. I mean, it beats the hell out of bronze, LOL!
 
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The Japanese in past anyway made their swords similar to this fashion. They would fold over hard and soft steel over and over thousands of times giving the sword the advantage of both steels, being able to sharpen it razor sharp and yet flexible enough to not be brittle.

Actually the "advantage" in the process for making the Katana, Wakazashi, and Tanto are in the method the Japanese used to harden and temper the blade. This gives the edge a greater hardness allowing amazing sharpness, while the body of the blade remains flexable enough to stand up to some impact. The hamon line is visible in a traditionally crafted Katana/Wakazashi bade.

KATANA TIPS.JPG


LD
 
Actually the "advantage" in the process for making the Katana, Wakazashi, and Tanto are in the method the Japanese used to harden and temper the blade. This gives the edge a greater hardness allowing amazing sharpness, while the body of the blade remains flexable enough to stand up to some impact. The hamon line is visible in a traditionally crafted Katana/Wakazashi bade.

View attachment 39561

LD
BANZAI !!
 
You can nail your bowie into a telephone pole. I'm told the only steel tougher than leaf spring on a car is axle steel. I tried forging a piece of axle by hand, 4lb hammer. Couldn't hardly dent it and it was hotter than cherry red. It would make good stone chisels, climbing pitons, etc., if you have the stamina to beat on it long enough, LOL! Squint, planer blades are really good hard steel it has to be very high carbon to stand up to all that merciless cutting. The mild steel will work, somewhat; it's just a matter of performance. I mean, it beats the hell out of bronze, LOL!
I cant imagine how hard car axles would and do not want to find out 🙂
 
A lot of cheap 16th, 17th, and 18th century knives were actually iron bladed, not steel at all. Did they hold a razor edge? Of course not. But how much of what you use a knife for on the daily actually requires such an edge? You don't need a scalpel to make a sammich.

I don’t know of any examples of trade or better knives made of iron since Roman times.
 
Good afternoon, all.

I know, i know, i’ve read 40 posts and internet sites explaining all the reasons why you can’t make a serviceable blade out of steel from the lumber and hardware store. I understand the reasons and the role carbon plays and all that

Okay, i lied, i don’t. But i do realize sometimes you’re smart to take somebody’s word for something.

But the reason for this post is the true fact that a lot of people here don’t always take somebody’s word for how-come-you-can’t and then just have some success in doing it anyway.

So what i want to know is how you made hardware store steel into something you carry into the woods and how it’s working for you. Photos are great.

Thanks for all the responses,

don

Don,

Thanks for introducing this topic. I have seen photographs of frontier knives made from barrel hoops and wagon tires, and I doubt these were or even could have been heat treated. However, they all showed signs of use. Native people made knives of bone and even cane, here in the south, which were arguably softer than iron. Stone can be flaked to a razor edge, but it is brittle, and blades are necessarily short. An iron (or mild steel) blade could be made longer.

I may be out of my depth here, but it is my understanding that the oldest known way of carburizing (i.e. putting carbon into) a piece of iron was by hammering it into the surface. In post #2, malcolmf described this, as well as the process of folding and laminating the metal to get the carburized material into the center. I may be wrong, but I understand this to be "double shear steel." One interesting thing about old Indian trade knives is that many of them were sharpened on one side only. Generally, if you hold the knife in your right hand with the point up and the cutting edge to your left, the surface facing you would be beveled. My old friend Bill Plitt, who used to do conservation, restoration, and reproduction of Native American artifacts for museums, suggested this was because the cheaper trade knives were only case hardened. They were not folded and laminated as malcolmf described. If you sharpen the surface-hardened blade on one side only, this leaves a small line of harder, carburized metal down at the cutting edge. The core of the blade was still soft.

However, whether early trade knives were only carburized on the surface or were through-hardened, I believe they were softer than the steels we are accustomed to now. Lots of old Indian knives were worn down to a sliver. Osborne Russell described meeting a band of Sheepeater Indians who had an old knife in this condition,"...nearly worn to the back...," in Journal of a Trapper (p.31):

Russell p. 31.png

I have an old stainless butcher knife in my kitchen that used to belong to my mom. This knife has seen daily use for at least 60 years, and it still has plenty of steel left. A soft steel knife would need more frequent sharpening, and would therefore wear more quickly, like the one Russell described. Edwin Thompson Denig, a trader at Fort Union on the upper Missouri, described the knives typically carried by the Assiniboine as "...of English manufacture, a logwood or Brazilwood handle, and soft steel blade about 8 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide, sharp on one edge..." (bold text mine).

The Earl of Southesk, who crossed the Canadian plains in 1859 and 1860, described the knife carried by one of his men in Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains (p. 214):

Southesk p. 214.png


Note that the knife could be sharpened on almost any "smooth stone." I believe he was probably describing a Hudson's Bay Camp Knife, like this one:

Buffalo Knife.jpg


Charles Garrad did extensive archaeological research on the Petun people, or "Tobacco Nation," of Canada. One of his monographs was "Iron Trade Knives on Petun Archaeological Sites." In the second paragraph of the introduction to this paper, he states, "All Petun area trade knives are believed to be made of iron. W. Douglas Bell... described the knives at the MacMurchy... site as steel, but pending examination of these artifacts, he is believed to be mistaken." Therefore, Garrad did recognize the difference between iron knives and those made of steel.

So, we have documentation of softer metal being used in trade knives, but who would be crazy enough to try that with a knife now ?

The answer would be yours truly.

The knife below was made from a blade blank I bought some years ago from GoKnapping.com. It was forged in a smithy in India or Pakistan or Bangladesh out of some mystery steel, but obviously something with minimal carbon content. Here is the knife I made from it:

Mild Steel .1.JPG


The handle is cut from a palmated section of weathered caribou antler, with ten-penny nails for rivets. The handle is a little wider than the tang, which is why the rivets are off center. I filled the gap in the underside of the handle with a mixture of antler dust and epoxy.

The next picture shows a raw blade blank above the knife I made from its sibling. The little triangular sliver of metal in the photo is the piece I cut from the upturned point of the blank, to give it more of a "clip point" configuration.

Mild Steel .2.JPG


These blades are soft enough that you can easily cut them with a hacksaw, files, or regular high-speed drill bits. In fact, I cut the tip with a hacksaw. It was easy. These blades come with a black, smutty finish that I removed with a wire brush and steel wool, and hammer marks are clearly visible.

And yes, I have actually used this knife. I have used it a number of times for breaking up kindling for a camp fire, and I have used it in food preparation. I have done some easy splitting of small stuff, using the knife with a baton, but not much. I suspect the back of the blade would mushroom or peen over if a baton was used very much. Yes, it dulls quicker than most of the knives we are accustomed to using, but about 90 seconds of quality time with a file puts a functional, meat-cutting edge right back on it.

I made this knife as an experiment, after reading those references above (and some others) that described knives of soft metal. I found it gets camp chores done. It dulls rapidly but sharpens easily. I have plenty of "better" knives, but this one works. Is it "as good" as a properly heat treated carbon steel knife? I'll be the first to tell you it isn't, but the bottom line is that it works. Many people condemn soft steel blades as useless or even deny their existence, but my research and personal experience suggests otherwise.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
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The Japanese in past anyway made their swords similar to this fashion. They would fold over hard and soft steel over and over thousands of times giving the sword the advantage of both steels, being able to sharpen it razor sharp and yet flexible enough to not be brittle.
moorman76:
I think you just described San Mai steel?
I've seen guys take 1/2" Rebar and make good knives out of THAT. Some rebar (I'm told) DOES possess enough carbon to make a usable knife, BUT, I wouldn't waste MY time trying it! Good carbon steel is waaaay too easy to find, so why?? Files are the starting point for most newbie knife makers; and for good reasson. Files make fantastic knives.
Just my $0.02
God bless:
Two Feathers
 
The Japanese folded steel multiple times to homogenize poor quality raw materials, and for no other reason.

car/truck leaf springs are commonly 5160 or a variant of that steel. Excellent blade steel, but a pain under the hammer.
axles are commonly 4140. Excellent for hammers and punches/drifts, but not particularly good at edge retention.
the 2nd pair of numbers in a carbon steel type is the % of carbon, with a decimal in front ie: 1095= 0.95% carbon (a high carbon steel) 1040= 0.40% carbon, which is considered a medium/low carbon steel. In general, steels with a carbon content of less than 0.60% are not considered as usable by blade makers.

Centurian: If you want a piece of virgin 1095 blade steel, I have some 1x1/4 in the shed I think. I’d be happy to send a piece if you cover shipping. Then again, a few sticks of 1080 from new jersey steel baron is cheap and possibly the easiest steel to properly heat treat.
 

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