In praise of Thompson Center Hawken & Renegade

What would we call the other black powder rifles made by T/C...? T/CBPR1, T/CBPR2, T/CBPR3... ::

Why not? Tryon numbered his rifles... Full Stocked, half stocked, half stocked with ribbed barrels, half stocked without ribbed barrels, and so on... I have nothing against well made muzzleloaders... T/C makes a well made muzzleloader, I own one... If it's going to carry the "Hawken" name then let me see some Hawken workmanship, like barrel length, drop, sights... Call it; T/C Hawken Style Rifle... Let's see some iron furniture, double wedges, lower entry thimble, toe plate, and I'll add just one more - how about that slow twist with shallow grooves, or I'd take it with deep grooves... Just some thoughts...

A couple more thoughts:

Actually I think TC's Hawken is always referred to as a "TC Hawken"...I know I and every other poster always refers to them that way so it's clear to others that the post is not about a "real Hawken" or even an exact copy of a real Hawken, but that the rifle being discussed is a "TC Hawken". I've never, ever, even hinted at trying to imply I had "real Hawken" rifles;

Barrels
PS: For an extra $10, you can specify TC's 1:66" slow twist RB barrel with .010" grooves if you order a TC Hawken, or you can buy a round ball barrel for a TC Hawken from TC's Fox Ridge subsidiary.

And that's good that a choice barrel is available for the T/C Hawken now... I'm not going to change the one I have as I've already worked up a good load for it... To be completely honost, I really thought twice about getting into this conversation because I know that the T/C is the first rifle that many folks buy and there is that relationship a person forms with that first rifle... As long as those who buy the T/C rifles are happy with them, that's great! It may sound as if I'm unhappy with mine, but I'm not. I knew what I was getting and I got it... Would I sell it, or trade it? Not a chance! Would I buy another? No... I custom build my rifles these days. Been doing it for ten years now. I bought the T/C Hawken I have now because I wanted their 25th Anniversary Rifle, and so I got one... Great comments within these post, enjoyed taking part...

Occasionally I see a TC Muzzleloader #1 in the pawn shops.

I bet we could call it a TC HOCKING !! :applause: :applause: :: :: :: ::

There is always some speculation as to what steered the TC guys to build the Hawkin, and how much ML research was involved, here are some interesting things..."We made it for the hunter,I can't picture myself walking around the woods witha 42" barreled rifle"....."Flat springs wouldn't last ten minutes"...."I didn't know anything about twists in blackpowder barrels"..." we picked the one(twist)which was slightly better with the Maxi-Ball"..." Traditionally ML rifles have been built with twists suited for round balls, in the neighborhood of one turn in sixty inches".
( original Hawkens were likely 1/48) "parenthesis comment mine"
The above quotes reflect little research as I see it... they are quotes from an interview with Warren Center from the mid 1970's from an article in the BP gun digest, once again not flaming TC's just offering a differnt perspective on what fueled their birth.
My daydreaming about what if they had taken the PC path and the use of the rb is just in wondering if the whole in-line thing may not have even started because the TC guns were the forefathers of the modern ML/in-line...a mix of the old and new, modern sights, and stock style/barrel length and projectile..the first step toward what Mr knight finished.

Thompson Cener went into the muzzle loader business with ONE purpose in mind. TO MAKE MONEY!
And that they did. They are a business. If I owned a business I would want to make money too!
T/C made a great looking, rugged, reliable, rifle with the best warranty in the field.
When I got into black powder I didn't know what "period correct" was. I didn't care either.
I doubt anyone has worn out a T/C lock or barrel by shooting them. The cussed 1:48 shallow twist does not shoot either round ball or bullet with exceptional accuracy, but I've seen many a deer fall to the Maxiball (nice name for a bullet what?)
Many people started off with the T/C as it was the best rifle available at the time. It's still a solid value.
I still have 4 (I think) T/C rifles, none of which still have the original barrel, they all have Green Mountain barrels, some bullet shooters, some roundballers.
No doubt that T/C did more than any other modern business to promote black powder shooting than any two companies put together. ::

Also featured in the same 1972 Black Powder Gun Digest is an article called "Out of the Past, Into the Future" on two newly establised companies, one call Rocky Mountian Arms Corporation who developed a swivel breech loading rifle available with a wooden or fiber stock. ( developed by none other than Dick Casull ) Along with them is a company called Esopus Gun Works who developed a swivel barrel gun AND an all new inline muzzle loader with faster lock time and the fit and feel of an up-to-date high power rifle... sound familiar? Makes me wonder when Mr Knight came up with his ideas?

I am certain there were many early attempts to mix the old and new, as some simply could not accept the fact that the old ways would work, The TC guns simply took off so to speak and became an acceptable mix in most circles, which I believe helped pave the way for what was to come.....had the early replicas and regulations been geared toward rb only or period type bullets I do not think the evolution of the modern ML would have came to be.

One area where the TC Hawken falls flat on its face when compared with a Real Hawken is weight!!
Yup, ole TC didn't pay much attention to the Weight, and for that I'm grateful.

The Real Hawkens usually weighed "...in the neighborhood of 10 1/2 pounds, be it full stocked, or halfstocked..." ( HAWKEN RIFLES The Mountain Man's Choice pg 44 by John D. Baird). The TC Hawken only weighs a piddling 8 1/4 pounds (.50 cal 15/16 octagon).
Of course, the Real Hawken was usually carried by a horse, while most TC Hawkens are carried by a hunter on foot.

I couldn't help but notice the Great Plains Rifle in .50 cal weighs 9 1/4 pounds. A little more Hawkenish (is that a word?) but it's also shy 1 1/4 pounds. Relative to the TC, the GPR is also an extra pound to pack up and down the mountains when your hunting on foot.

While musing over this subject I got to wondering, why don't I see anyone complaining about CVA? As you all know, CVA makes a "ST. LOUIS HAWKEN RIFLE". Now ole TC didn't say his was made in, or had anything to do with St. Louis but CVA says theres a connection there somewhere.
I don't think I have ever seen anyone say anything about CVA not doing their PC homework. Weird.

Anyway, to sum up my rambling, I will give TC one gold star for being closer to a Hawken than any other mass produced gun in production now. It is made in the USA, just like the original.

was and is a good rifle. It has a 32" 1-60" twist barrel, 2 barrel wedges, and a traditional leaf spring instead of a coil spring innards. It is as close as the Grat Plains as far as Historical accuracy goes.

Those Mt rifle were a good PC ish gun when they came out, I think everyone and their uncle followed TC's lead with a"Hawken" of some modernistic fashion,all are about the same exept in quality and I don't think anyone is complaining, just discussing the various aspects of the guns from a historical perspective, this does however seem to bother some folks which has always amuses me when we are talking of a type of gun from where......the past...sometimes we refer to this time period as history!

CVA also made. When Michigan frist had a muzzleloader season for deer I got A CVA Mountain Rifle kit from Meijers I didn't care about PC I just wanted to extend my hunting season and I found the CVA to be a lot better deal than a shotgun. I bet a lot of you got into muzzleloaders for the same reason. That kit was less than a $100. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Great lookin' TC Hawken Bob - too bad they didn't bring out a few limited edition premium curly maple guns like yours :winking:

Click to expand...

yeah to bad....but i know i have the only one now :winking:.........................bob