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weirdo 1857 enfield

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BadHorse

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i got this original shooter recently with a few others like it. its an original 1857 enfield "smoothbore" and as im told it was "liberated" from a collection in afganistan a few years ago. this weirdo has seen a lot of action and history. amazingly its still a shooter. i almost forgot, i named her "Lucrezia Borgia" and she lives up to her name
 
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Was it made smoothbore for arming native troops, or rebored later?
The Afghanis were using rifles pretty early.
Did the Brits have a call for a smoothie ‘57 in that area?
 
this weapon was part of the cause and solution for the indian mutiny. enfield rebarreled a handful of rifles to make them smoothbores. i think the year was 1859
 
I recall a passage from Eric Newby's book, A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush, describing a chance meeting with an Afghan man who was carrying a muzzle loader made, said the man, "in Englestan." The gun was evidently obtained in trade.

I think some military rifle muskets were issued as smoothbores to use for foraging. I can't say for sure about this one, though.

Thanks for posting! It is an interesting gun.

Notchy Bob
 
I recall a passage from Eric Newby's book, A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush, describing a chance meeting with an Afghan man who was carrying a muzzle loader made, said the man, "in Englestan." The gun was evidently obtained in trade.

I think some military rifle muskets were issued as smoothbores to use for foraging. I can't say for sure about this one, though.

Thanks for posting! It is an interesting gun.

Notchy Bob


from wikipedia

Indian Rebellion 1857/Sepoy Mutiny

An engraving titled Sepoy Indian troops dividing the spoils after their mutiny against British rule, which include a number of muskets
The Enfield P53 was introduced to Indian troops under British rule in 1856.[6] The Enfield rifle-musket was a contributing cause of the Indian rebellion of 1857. Sepoys in the British East India Company's armies in India were issued with the new rifle in 1857, and rumours were spread that the cartridges (referring here to paper-wrapped powder and projectile, not to metallic cartridges) were greased with beef tallow, pig fat, or a combination of the two – a situation abhorrent to Hindu and Muslim soldiers based on religious beliefs.

British military drills of the time required soldiers to tear open by biting open the prepared cartridge, pour the gunpowder contained within down the barrel, snap off the greased end of the cartridge containing the bullet at the muzzle, ram it home, bring up the rifle to the hip, replace the percussion cap, ready the rifle by setting the sights and moving it to full cock, then to present the rifle, marking the target and squeezing the trigger. The musketry books also recommended that, "Whenever the grease around the bullet appears to be melted away, or otherwise removed from the cartridge, the sides of the bullet should be made wet in the mouth before putting it into the barrel; the saliva will serve the purpose of grease for the time being".[7]

The idea of having anything which might be tainted with pig or beef fat in their mouths was unacceptable to the Indian soldiers, and when they objected it was suggested that they were more than welcome to make up their own batches of cartridges, using a religiously acceptable greasing agent such as ghee or vegetable oil. This seemed to prove that the issued cartridges were, in fact, greased with pig and/or beef fat. A further suggestion that the Sepoys tear the cartridges open with their hands (instead of biting them open) was rejected as impractical – many of the Sepoys had been undertaking musket drill daily for years, and the practice of biting the cartridge open was second nature to them. Incidentally, after the Mutiny, manuals amended the method of opening the cartridge to, "Bring the cartridge to the forefinger and thumb of the left hand, and with the arm close to the body, carefully tear off the end without spilling the powder."[8]

As a consequence of British fears, the Indian infantry's long arms were modified to be less accurate by reaming out the rifling of the Pattern 1853 making it a smooth bore and the spherical / ball shot does not require greasing, just a patch. This greatly reduced the gun's potency and effectiveness, as did replacing the variable distance rear sight to a fixed sight. This became the Pattern 1858. However, due to the now thinner walls, the barrel would bulge and bursting was not an unknown problem. Furthermore, with the bayonet fitted excessive flexing became an issue. To remedy this, an urgent order was placed in England for around 12,000 new barrels made specifying with a thicker barrel wall. This became the very scarce Enfield Pattern 1859 which in good to very good condition attracts a premium.
 
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i got this original shooter recently with a few others like it. its an original 1857 enfield "smoothbore" and as im told it was "liberated" from a collection in afganistan a few years ago. this weirdo has seen a lot of action and history. amazingly its still a shooter. i almost forgot, i named her "Lucrezia Borgia" and she lives up to her name
Doesn’t look like one of the native troops smoothbore, as it has a long range sight on it. What is the bore size?
 
Too bad about the cleaning. Pretty dramatic example of what not to do with an old gun. Not blaming the op here. You have to take than as you find them. It is too bad all the old character was taken away and left with that wierd looking leopard spot stock.
 
The truth of the matter regarding the grease was that mutton tallow was used - both Hindu and Moslem troops eat that meat. The accusation of trying to offend almost everybody was a pretext for rebellion. Worked, too. The Sepoy Rebellion was a total bloody mess from start to finish, for both sides.
 
The smoothbore Sepoy version of the Enfield was 0,656" bore and had a fixed rear sight. Enfields have very shallow rifling, especially at the muzzle. I have twice bought an alleged smoothbore in Snider converted form which proved to be rifled when the bore was given a thorough clean. Maybe a good clean will reveal rifling? With that rear sight it was made rifled. By whom I would not presume to say.

Re the Mutiny. There were many issues especially related to mismanagement in the Bengal Presidency Army. The other two Presidency armies largely remaining loyal. The issue of Enfield cartridge greasing was met by offers to allow troops to make and grease their own and honest denials by officers that the fat was other than mutton tallow/beeswax. The sepoys had used greased ball Brunswick Rifles for years with no complaint and had changed to coconut or linseed oil for operational reasons not religious issues. The greased Enfield cartridges were a trigger for an existing problem. However, it was not helped by venal or incompetent suppliers to the Indian arsenals who were later found to have supplied cheaper incorrect fats to the arsenals so the accusations were not without foundation. But not as a deliberate policy as the mutineers claimed. It is suggested that the real trigger was the ending of foreign service payments for service in Oudh when Oudh was annexed to the Company in 1856. Combine this with bad man management, permitted evangelism and the majority recruitment from the highest Brahmin caste in Bengal and it was clear that the officers had lost the confidence of their men who were suspicious of their motives and insecure in their caste status.

The mutineers were not reluctant to use Enfield cartridges themselves when they could get Enfields. The Company's two other armies were little affected, many sepoys remained loyal and new sepoys recruited from elsewhere as well as the Nepal army coming to assist. It was all much more complicated than a 19th century sound bite of 'greased cartridges'.
 
I can assure all of you this thing is a .577 smooth bore thats been re-barreled, even with the rear sights. a bore light told all. also when i say liberated from a collection in Afghanistan what i mean is it was taken out of an armory as it was in use. so not really cleaned
 
I recall a passage from Eric Newby's book, A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush, describing a chance meeting with an Afghan man who was carrying a muzzle loader made, said the man, "in Englestan." The gun was evidently obtained in trade.

I think some military rifle muskets were issued as smoothbores to use for foraging. I can't say for sure about this one, though.

Thanks for posting! It is an interesting gun.

Notchy Bob
Englestan!
That fits perfectly for today 😆.
 
I can assure all of you this thing is a .577 smooth bore thats been re-barreled, even with the rear sights. a bore light told all. also when i say liberated from a collection in Afghanistan what i mean is it was taken out of an armory as it was in use. so not really cleaned
If it’s 577 and has the long range sight, it’s not a sepoy musket
 
Keoni121 my similar barrels were totally smooth bore when examined with light shining through as converted ex muzzleloader barrels but a scrub through with oil and fine wire wool showed traces of rifling and more effort with more oil and wool ended up with two sets of rifling. One in excellent condition and the other worn but quite shootable. Of course yours may be actually smooth bored. Does it have the proof marks on the barrel and is the sight slide marked in European numbers? I have had some Indian made copies (bazaar originals not modern copies) which had similar sights and were made smooth bored but they had no British markings on them. Proper Khyber copies were usually rifled as the market demanded that. A measure of the bore at the muzzle might give a clue. If it was 0,577" and then bored smooth it should be greater than the 0,577" land diameter. If it were an Enfield made sepoy musket the bore would be markedly less, as above. Some close photographs of the breech with markings and a top close shot of the rear sight would be handy. Glad you find it a useful shooter. Below is a photograph of an actual Enfield Pattern 1859 Sepoy Musket for those unfamiliar with them.
a149fc6c-4129-4aaf-959b-0ea8c541680f.jpg
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and this front sight is a modern Indian copy but is the best shot I have to show the 'dog kennel' shape of the bayonet lug/sight
p59 2.jpeg
 
nothing like being dead wrong on a rifle. i have a smoothbore, thats the original sight and my weapon is from south east aisa, aka india. ive seen others exactly like mine
So, you have a 577 musket with a long range sight. You still don’t have a sepoy musket, because they weren’t 577. It came from India. Cool. Enjoy
 
The Sepoy smooth bore Enfields where a good arm . Well managed they are very hard to beat in the ' Lovell ' MLAGB matches . I shot a Pattern' F', E I Coy Miners & Sappers carbine I managed a silver but never beat the Mutiny Enfields .
I doubt the issue cartridge involved any' patched ball '. I recall the guard at the Coin Museum in Kathmandu in 1969 was armed with one, its bayonet so worn it rattled .Or maybe just a' rattleing good fit' ?. Rudyard
 
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