.54 round ball rifling?

Griz44Mag said:

The stock Renegade barrel is 1:48 - so your measurement is right on (+\- a tad.)

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All would be good but his gun is a .50 and he is looking to have it reamed/cut to .54 (per first post).

Many years ago I ordered a .54 rifle barrel from Don Getz. After talking on the phone with him I ordered a 1 in 55" twist barrel with round bottom grooves. I have been shooting that rifle now for 40 years. It never needs cleaning between shots. The gun really likes a .526 ball with .012 patching over 75 grains of 3F. For close up work it shoots to the same point of aim with 55 grains of 3F

If I remember right in the late 70s and early 80s there was a lot of push to use slow rifling to shoot heavy charges to "extend" range and increase the power. If I was ordering a barrel today for a combination use of target and hunting I would follow something along Many Klatch's barrel. Why punish yourself with heavy loads to get the best accuracy from a barrel unless you are using it primarily for large game on a regular basis.

Well she went in the mail today to Mr. Hoyt. Should be there by Saturday. I left the rifling and twist up to him! He is also going to cut a dove tail for rear sights as I am going to traditional sights verses the T/C sights. Once its back I am ordering a curly maple stock for it. All that will be T/C will be the righting on the barrel. New L&R lock, new L&R Hawken rear sights, New triggers now rifle bore and new stock and furnishings.

Bucky182 said:

Well she went in the mail today to Mr. Hoyt. Should be there by Saturday. I left the rifling and twist up to him! He is also going to cut a dove tail for rear sights as I am going to traditional sights verses the T/C sights. Once its back I am ordering a curly maple stock for it. All that will be T/C will be the righting on the barrel. New L&R lock, new L&R Hawken rear sights, New triggers now rifle bore and new stock and furnishings.

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Gonna need pictures my friend

Many Klatch said:

Many years ago I ordered a .54 rifle barrel from Don Getz. After talking on the phone with him I ordered a 1 in 55" twist barrel with round bottom grooves. I have been shooting that rifle now for 40 years. It never needs cleaning between shots. The gun really likes a .526 ball with .012 patching over 75 grains of 3F. For close up work it shoots to the same point of aim with 55 grains of 3F

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.526 ? Wow would never have tried this combo with a .012 patch ...

Or misprint?

No I like an easy load. The barrel muzzle has been coned. I can thumb start the load and send it home with my ramrod in one push. It's loose enough that I can shoot 20 or 30 shots before it really gets hard to load. The accuracy works great at what ever range I care to shoot. I don't shoot much paper, mostly gongs and fun targets like playing cards, golf balls and chains.

Many Klatch Is a noted 'Widowmaker' he shoots lots , He knows his onions .He may have started with a faulty gun lock but that's just 'Lizards' sense of humour .
'Lt Mork' AKA Rudyard.

Rudyard said:

Many Klatch Is a noted 'Widowmaker' he shoots lots , He knows his onions .He may have started with a faulty gun lock but that's just 'Lizards' sense of humour .
'Lt Mork' AKA Rudyard.

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I second that. Many Klatch is a good shot. I’ve lost against him, more than once. Lol

You all English boys, then? I’m a Yank. Recently I bought a tin of black treacle and found it quite bitter! It is not used in this country.

I'm certain Mr. Hoyt can make you smile when you see his work. I dont believe I've ever heard of an unhappy customer of his.
Dont forget PICTURES!!!

Grenadier1758 said:

The slower the twist, the more likely you will need a large powder charge for optimal accuracy. A 1 in 60 twist may work well with a powder charge of 65 grains of 3fg, but it will take 100 grains of 2fg to get the same accuracy in a 50 caliber rifle. Its nice to want to be different, but if you use Bobby Hoyt to rebore the barrel, let him choose the best twist. Its okay to do the same as others.

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Exactly right. The .54 w/1:72" twist I had would start to close up the groups at about 90 grains. At 100 grains the pain took away all the fun. I would't go higher than that. Solved the problem by selling the rifle. Check the museums. You will find 1:48" far and away the most common. Why mess with what is proven? 1:48" will give optimum accuracy with smaller charges. Higher charges for angry grizz will only open the groups a small amount.

Quite how black treacle has any relevance rather escapes me . Black pudding makes more sense but even that is getting away from black powder .I am not annoyed just bemused.
Rudyard

It really doesn't take much of a spin to stabilize a ball and given the same bore smoothness, the slower the twist and deeper the groove,, (with in reason) the less fouling one has to contend with.
I made a .54 cal horse pistol many years ago with a cut off rifle barrel 9 inches long with a pitch of 1in 60 and out to the 50 yards tested it is remarkably accurate. No one I'm aware of would purposely make a pistol with that slow of pitch but I wanted to see if it would work and it surely did. It changed what I though I knew about how fast a round ball needs to spin to be accurate, at least to the 50 yard mark it has been tested to.

M. De Land said:

It really doesn't take much of a spin to stabilize a ball and given the same bore smoothness, the slower the twist and deeper the groove,, (with in reason) the less fouling one has to contend with.
I made a .54 cal horse pistol many years ago with a cut off rifle barrel 9 inches long with a pitch of 1in 60 and out to the 50 yards tested it is remarkably accurate. No one I'm aware of would purposely make a pistol with that slow of pitch but I wanted to see if it would work and it surely did. It changed what I though I knew about how fast a round ball needs to spin to be accurate, at least to the 50 yard mark it has been tested to.

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What.
Most barrels slated as RB are about 1 in 60 today (56-65-66-70), a 9 inch piece of cut off rifle barrel has the same rate of twist as the rest of the barrel, I'm not sure why you were surprised about the performance you got from it. I'm in the 1 in 48 camp (as I've stated before). Only thing a 9" barrel may lack is the velocity of a longer barrel.

Half of the velocity potential between a full length rifle barrel and short hand gun barrel is why most of them are made with higher rates of twist especially if they are to also shoot conicals. But then again , a good smooth bore can be amazingly accurate to 50-75 yards if patched correctly.
It must be remembered though a ball that exits a muzzle at velocity is not round any more but will have a waist portion that is more or less straight sided for a bit from loading pressure and bump up inertia, which is also a stabilizing factor in my opinion. I think this is one of the reasons smooth bores patched correctly will shoot so amazingly well for the shorter ranges. Smooth bore cannon were also said to be exceptionally accurate to several hundred yards but these I think were often in a sabot type projectile launching round iron balls.

Back in the mid 80s I had Douglas cut a 1” barrel to .50 cal with 1:56 twist .012” deep. Great round all shooter. 60 gr FFg to 50 yards 90 gr FFg for 100 yards. Wish it were flint.

My serious deer/elkhunting flintlock rig is a .54 GM w 1/70 twist. .535 ball 90 gr FFg and in more open spaces 125 gr rings an 8” gong consistently at 130 yards. It’s on a Renegade stock the shotgun butt plate makes acceptable recoil to me.

Rudyard said:

Quite how black treacle has any relevance rather escapes me . Black pudding makes more sense but even that is getting away from black powder .I am not annoyed just bemused.
Rudyard

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Those America boys have strange ideas of what we eat Rudyard.

Smokey Plainsman said:

You all English boys, then? I’m a Yank. Recently I bought a tin of black treacle and found it quite bitter! It is not used in this country.

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Yep. I’m English, but more important, I’m a Widowmaker. I shoot with my brothers and sisters in the USA, as often as I can.

Rudyard said:

Quite how black treacle has any relevance rather escapes me . Black pudding makes more sense but even that is getting away from black powder .I am not annoyed just bemused.
Rudyard

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Relax, lad. They say you old Brits are wee stodgy! Wouldn’t want to reinforce that rubbish would you?