Patch or lube issue

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

I’m still having problems with my patches fired from my Kibler .54 Colonial. IF I am able to locate the spent patch it’s usually still smoldering and shredded to pieces. I thought maybe due to my patch material being old so I bought new pillow ticking and pocket drill. That didn’t help.

I use Mr Flintlock lube with a .530 ball over 70-80 grns if FFg. I’ve tried running Scotchbrite down the barrel to cleanup any sharp edges. I haven’t tried smoothing the lands at the muzzle yet. Maybe it’s getting cut there.
It seems like a spit patch doesn’t burn up as bad as patches lubed with Mr Flintlock. Some of these are actually burning if I find them.
I have shot this rifle about 60 times so far.

Sorry to ramble on with this. I wanted to let everyone know all factors involved.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I can try?

Phil Coffins · Mar 31, 2020

Your barrel is a premium barrel and doesn't need Scothbright or any other abrasives in it. How thick are your patches? A tight dry patch won't burn like these so try a tighter patch with a dampness to them. I've never used Mr. Flintlock lube but it has a good reputation which makes me think your load is too loose.

Carbon 6 · Mar 31, 2020

Are you washing your pillow ticking before use ?

I would load a ball like normal, then pull it and examine the patch look for any signs or tearing weave separation or cutting. You might need a magnifying glass. Once you rule out the issue of sharp lands we can move on to lube and patching.

TreeMan · Mar 31, 2020

I’ve never seen a patch shred or burn like that. What thickness patch is that? Are you sure it’s cotton ticking and not synthetic?

Griz44Mag · Mar 31, 2020

Burned patch - wrong lube or no lube.
Shredding in a new premium barrel - crappy patch material. Old and falling apart?
Go to TOTW, buy the pre-cut dry cotton patches. Buy a tin of mink tallow or some other quality patch lube.
You bought a fine high quality rifle, don't feed it junk food.
If you cant get it to shoot send it to me and I will work up a patch-lube-ball load that will make it a match winner.
I'll send it back to you in a couple of years (or so)

Carbon 6 · Mar 31, 2020

Gavin T Lane said:
I’ve never seen a patch shred or burn like that.

I have.

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

Hi everyone. Thanks for the replies. Yes, this rifle is of the finest quality. Jim Kibler produces fine products.
As for the patches they are red wht cotton mattress ticking. Also tried #40 pocket drill. All were washed before using.
Ive used both in other guns wo a problem.
I don’t think it’s an issue of too loose of a load. I own lots of rifles and this pushes down tightly. I use a starter to get the ball down the first few inches. (Maybe that’s the problem).
Grizz thx for the offer to take care of her. That’s very nice of you. I think.
Carbon6 I’ll try your suggestion. I’ve always been a bit nervous about pulling a ball as the only time I tried it didn’t turn out well.
I’m trying to send a pic of another patch. It does look to have tears from loading or at least the trip down the bore. I’m starting to think maybe I’m damaging the patch while loading with a ball starter.
I have used Mr Flintlock lube for a couple years. I think it’s good but I do notice burning patches with other guns as well.

Flintandsteel · Mar 31, 2020

Try .535 ball over a .020 cotton or linen patch with liquid lube. Powder amount is pretty close.

Carbon 6 · Mar 31, 2020

TarponStalker said:
Carbon6 I’ll try your suggestion. I’ve always been a bit nervous about pulling a ball as the only time I tried it didn’t turn out well.

Get a buddy to help and load the gun with power in case it strips out, you can still shoot it out.
the easy way would be to unbreach it but that's not for everyone.

Based on everything you've said it sounds like a rough or sharp bore or sharp crown.

Carbon 6 · Mar 31, 2020

You could also try using an over powder wad and see if things change.

MI MAN · Mar 31, 2020

I have a kibler 50 cal colonial. For a long time I couldn't even find the patches and when I could they were char. This only improved by going to a .495 round ball and 0.020 oxyoke patch. Much tighter and these patches have a very tight weave. Also had to bring the powder charge (Swiss 2f) down. However most of the improvement was due to the patch and ball change.

MI MAN · Mar 31, 2020

I forgot to mention I also use a slightly over sized wool wad between the powder and patches round ball.

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

If I go up .005 in ball size won’t that make for a really tight loading process? I’ve always used a ball .010 under. Even with that I rarely can shoot over 2-3 shots without swabbing.
I want to order some more balls of different sizes and try some TOW mink oil but with this virus manure going on I must wait. I’ve cancelled all of my charters this week and probably next week too. I don’t want to risk my life or my customers life over a fish. At least I have time to shoot.

Flintandsteel · Mar 31, 2020

I repeat 055" under size ball, and .020" patch, liquid lube.
No more cleaning between shots, no burnt patches.
Never seen a Rice barrel that would cut a patch.
First 7 shots out of a .45 Kibler SMR, no load development.
.445 ball, .020" patch, shoot all day, no swabbing.
Every Rice I've used, (well over 25), have all shot like this.
I load with the rod under the barrel.

Tom A Hawk · Mar 31, 2020

If the problem is at the muzzle it is not necessary to ram the ball all the way down. Just start it flush using an over sized piece of lubed patch material that will allow you to pull the ball back out. If the muzzle is sharp, cuts in the patch material will be obvious.

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

Tom A Hawk said:
If the problem is at the muzzle it is not necessary to ram the ball all the way down. Just start it flush using an over sized piece of lubed patch material that will allow you to pull the ball back out. If the muzzle is sharp, cuts in the patch material will be obvious.

Thanks Tom

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

Flintandsteel said:
I repeat 055" under size ball, and .020" patch, liquid lube.
No more cleaning between shots, no burnt patches.
Never seen a Rice barrel that would cut a patch.
First 7 shots out of a .45 Kibler SMR, no load development.
.445 ball, .020" patch, shoot all day, no swabbing.
Every Rice I've used, (well over 25), have all shot like this.
I load with the rod under the barrel.
View attachment 27549

Tom A Hawk said:
If the problem is at the muzzle it is not necessary to ram the ball all the way down. Just start it flush using an over sized piece of lubed patch material that will allow you to pull the ball back out. If the muzzle is sharp, cuts in the patch material will be obvious.

Thanks flintandsteel. I’ll try this.

Grenadier1758 · Mar 31, 2020

It sounds as if you are using good patches. I use cotton drill cloth with great success. If its not the patching or the lubricants, then what can be causing the problems? You did run Scotchbrite down the barrel to smooth the tops of the lands, so I think the lands down the barrel can ruled out.

What is the condition of the crown at the muzzle? Is it a bevel or is it smoothly rounded? It should be quite smooth and preferably rounded. Generally a sharp crown will cause a circular cut and some times sharp lands at the crown will make the cuts we see in the one patch with the holes at the lands. While we are trying to stop the shredding of the patches and you can't go out after tarpon, it might be a good time to get some wet/dry sandpaper and smooth the crown. Use your thumb to sand the muzzle as you rotate the barrel.

My Hawken had a muzzle with a sharp crown and it shredded patches just like the ones you are showing us. I think its time to smooth the crown.

Zonie · Mar 31, 2020

TarponStalker said:
I’m still having problems with my patches fired from my Kibler .54 Colonial. IF I am able to locate the spent patch it’s usually still smoldering and shredded to pieces. I thought maybe due to my patch material being old so I bought new pillow ticking and pocket drill. That didn’t help.

I use Mr Flintlock lube with a .530 ball over 70-80 grns if FFg. I’ve tried running Scotchbrite down the barrel to cleanup any sharp edges. I haven’t tried smoothing the lands at the muzzle yet. Maybe it’s getting cut there.
It seems like a spit patch doesn’t burn up as bad as patches lubed with Mr Flintlock. Some of these are actually burning if I find them.
I have shot this rifle about 60 times so far.

Sorry to ramble on with this. I wanted to let everyone know all factors involved.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I can try?View attachment 27518 View attachment 27520

Removing the sharp edges where the rifling grooves and lands meet the crown at the muzzle is one of the first things you should have done.
Doing that, along with breaking the sharp edges on the rifling grooves should help to solve the problem.

Notice the damaged material where the patch was cut by the rifling in this picture you posted above.

Those holes will let the burning powder flame blow past the ball and cause the problem you've been seeing. Most likely they were created when the ball first started into the bore.

Many people have seen this before but to break the sharp edges, use a 220 or 320 grit, black silicone carbide, wet/dry sandpaper. Tear off a piece that is about 1" X 1". Place it on the muzzle and use your thumb to press it down into the crown. Move your hand back and forth and rotate the barrel slowly while you do this. Change the paper often until you can see that all of the sharp edges have been rounded off.
Doing this won't have a bad effect on accuracy. In fact, it will improve the accuracy.

If you don't like the bright, sanded/polished look of the muzzle when your done, coating the surface with a quick bluing solution like Birchwood Casey "PERMA-BLUE" will make the repair unnoticeable.

TarponStalker · Mar 31, 2020

Zonie said:
Removing the sharp edges where the rifling grooves and lands meet the crown at the muzzle is one of the first things you should have done.
Doing that, along with breaking the sharp edges on the rifling grooves should help to solve the problem.

Notice the damaged material where the patch was cut by the rifling in this picture you posted above.

View attachment 27551

Those holes will let the burning powder flame blow past the ball and cause the problem you've been seeing. Most likely they were created when the ball first started into the bore.

Many people have seen this before but to break the sharp edges, use a 220 or 320 grit, black silicone carbide, wet/dry sandpaper. Tear off a piece that is about 1" X 1". Place it on the muzzle and use your thumb to press it down into the crown. Move your hand back and forth and rotate the barrel slowly while you do this. Change the paper often until you can see that all of the sharp edges have been rounded off.
Doing this won't have a bad effect on accuracy. In fact, it will improve the accuracy.

If you don't like the bright, sanded/polished look of the muzzle when your done, coating the surface with a quick bluing solution like Birchwood Casey "PERMA-BLUE" will make the repair unnoticeable.

Thanks Zonie. I’ll add that to my list.

Patch or lube issue

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