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Third one from the top claims its an "S Hawken"


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And........if they're real, what resources are out there to learn about the actual values?
 
They say there are about 3x as many surviving Hawken rifles as were actually made. That’s a joke I hope.

Your best bet is provenance. If published in a book as an S Hawken then the next collector will probably accept that it is. Looks good from here. As far as value, one can only research those sold recently.

Generally speaking J&S Hawken rifles are more rare and can sell for more. Any rifle owned by someone famous is worth more.

Hawken rifles that are documented, not heavily restored run from $8-15,000 (S Hawken squirrel rifles) to over $100,000 (the silver-mounted J&S Atcheson Hawken). But do your own sale research.
 
The rifle in first image, third from top, does appear to be pictured in R. L. Wilson's "The Peacemakers," p. 51. The caption states it bears "S. Hawken" and "St. Louis" markings, describing it as ".54 caliber, with silver patchbox, T. Gibbon lock." This text is one of my favorite drool books.
 
The rifle in first image, third from top, does appear to be pictured in R. L. Wilson's "The Peacemakers," p. 51. The caption states it bears "S. Hawken" and "St. Louis" markings, describing it as ".54 caliber, with silver patchbox, T. Gibbon lock." This text is one of my favorite drool books.

The caliber marking may be a red flag. How many verified Hawken rifles bear a " caliber" designation? When did period pieces first carry a caliber marking?
 
For $3-4K you can get a really nice copy made and let him keep it for $38K.


Oh I've already done that. Except I had mine made with a flintlock just because that's what i wanted.

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I'd just like to know what I'm doing, in case I ever stumble across a treasure that's undervalued.
 
Nice flinter. I like the sight up where it can be seen.
I've had some originals, but I always worried about shooting them or damaging something. So, I got out of the original business.
 
Nice flinter. I like the sight up where it can be seen.
I've had some originals, but I always worried about shooting them or damaging something. So, I got out of the original business.
In the same frame of mind with you.
I shoot everything I have, no matter the age.
I have a few that are not national treasures, but old family hand-me-downs well into the 100+ year old class. They all shoot great and each has a special place and story in the family tree. Since I am the oldest son, I took custody when my father felt it was time to pass them along. I got them ready and did some repairs to get them all in shooting condition. Dad was amazed that I found or had made the parts required, he had been looking for parts for 30+ years for one of them. AND a member of the cast boolits forum had that part in a parts drawer full of "stuff" and sent it to me free of charge, super happy to have been instrumental in the recovery of a fine old gun.
 
How you know: You become a student of that maker/school and learn all the nuances, and also study originals and all the various ways they indeed look. You learn the difference in real patina and fake patina, real saddle wear and applied "wear and tear". You look at and handled dozens and dozens of originals.

OR
You have an expert who has done all these things for many years look at it (and he needs to be a disinterested party to the sale). I know a handful of guys I'd trust to do that.

A "Hawken" marked gun sold for 50k last year at auction-as an original. All the experts I know pointed out many reasons why it was not authentic, there was no disagreement amongst those learned fellows. But we also never heard any flap made about the sale--So I surmised that some folks have 50k to throw at anything they fancy-whether it's authentic or not. I don't, but that shouldn't keep me from letting that other fellow spend his money. He may not care. There are folks like that.
 
And........if they're real, what resources are out there to learn about the actual values?

I'd just like to know what I'm doing, in case I ever stumble across a treasure that's undervalued.

As several posters say, "you need to educate yourself by reading books and magazine articles and going to see originals in museums and gun shows or hire an expert to advise you." The Colorado Gun Collectors Association show last May in Denver had three original Hawken rifles on display. Two were being exhibited by auction houses for auctions later that year.

As far as the second comment quoted above, Hawken rifles are part of our pop culture now and well known in collecting circles. If you "stumble across a treasure that's undervalued", it's probably too good to be true.

Sometime back, we had some fun discussing some suspicious Hawken rifles at some reputable auctions. You can read the old threads here,

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/do-you-see-anything-suspicious-about-this-rifle.108733/

and here,

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/suspicious-hawken-rifle.111878/

The first link above was about a Hawken rifle that sold at a James D. Julia auction in 2016. James D. Julia has since been bought by Morphy Auctions and the links to the original item and pictures no longer work. That may have happened when the James D. Julia website was merged with the existing Morphy website or they may had the rifle returned and sale nullified. The discussion in the thread is still pertinent, though.

Both of these rifles sold way below market prices for authentic Hawken rifles, which in itself is a big red flag. That means the serious and knowledgeable collectors didn't participate. In spite of this, both rifles sold way above the value of a really good contemporary rifle, so someone likely thought they "stumbled across a treasure that's undervalued".

You can often go to most of the auction house websites and search past auctions to get an idea of the current market for a type of gun. Here is a search I just did for "Hawken" on Morphy's website. It has a mix of antique and contemporary guns and some of the Maryland school rifles that Christian Hawken made. But it shows you what type of info is available through the internet.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/auctionresults.aspx?searchvalue=hawken&searchby=3
 
Thanks


That's a lifetime of study.




I see in those threads the comment that "Something aint right" or similar.


There's a great book that you guys would enjoy that deals with your gut instincts, and why your brain says "Something aint Right"



its called

Blink, By Malcom Gladwell


9780316010665_p3_v2_s550x406.jpg
 
As several posters say, "you need to educate yourself by reading books and magazine articles and going to see originals in museums and gun shows or hire an expert to advise you." The Colorado Gun Collectors Association show last May in Denver had three original Hawken rifles on display. Two were being exhibited by auction houses for auctions later that year.

As far as the second comment quoted above, Hawken rifles are part of our pop culture now and well known in collecting circles. If you "stumble across a treasure that's undervalued", it's probably too good to be true.

Sometime back, we had some fun discussing some suspicious Hawken rifles at some reputable auctions. You can read the old threads here,

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/do-you-see-anything-suspicious-about-this-rifle.108733/

and here,

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/suspicious-hawken-rifle.111878/

The first link above was about a Hawken rifle that sold at a James D. Julia auction in 2016. James D. Julia has since been bought by Morphy Auctions and the links to the original item and pictures no longer work. That may have happened when the James D. Julia website was merged with the existing Morphy website or they may had the rifle returned and sale nullified. The discussion in the thread is still pertinent, though.

Both of these rifles sold way below market prices for authentic Hawken rifles, which in itself is a big red flag. That means the serious and knowledgeable collectors didn't participate. In spite of this, both rifles sold way above the value of a really good contemporary rifle, so someone likely thought they "stumbled across a treasure that's undervalued".

You can often go to most of the auction house websites and search past auctions to get an idea of the current market for a type of gun. Here is a search I just did for "Hawken" on Morphy's website. It has a mix of antique and contemporary guns and some of the Maryland school rifles that Christian Hawken made. But it shows you what type of info is available through the internet.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/auctionresults.aspx?searchvalue=hawken&searchby=3
Yeah, no reputable company wants it known that a 'ringer' got through.
 
One of those links had a presentation Hawken that sold for $95k


That sounds high but theres shotguns that sell for more than that, and they are no where near as cool, or historic.
 
The saddest thing is if/when a fakeism passes for authentic, and then the less-learned trust that assessment and study it as a piece of reference.

THIS is when our entire culture (of Early American Studies) suffers, and it's not about the money at that point, it's about history and truth-their veracity. We only have a short while on this Earth to be the caretakers of some of these things. Let us not foul that up too much.
 
I have a (former) friend who is a master builder of Hawkens. He built one that later was 'authenticated' by John Baird and published in American Rifleman magazine. This builder once lived in St. Louis and attended an auction of items from the Hawken shop. He owns the stamp with a crooked 'S' that, for many supposedly authenticates the rifle as being genuine.
 

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