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Brown Bess reproduction?
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No, I have never seen or heard of a repro lock with the name "Edge" on it. Is it an early "banana shaped" lock plate?
The Rifle Shoppe has sold and still sells cast Brown Bess lock plates and lock kits with same and one option is not to have any cast in engraving on the lock plate. These have also been available through Track of the Wolf.
So if it is a reproduction, it may be the name of the person who assembled the lock or the person who did that and built the gun or the name of the owner or some other reason.
Gus
The Rifle Shoppe has sold and still sells cast Brown Bess lock plates and lock kits with same and one option is not to have any cast in engraving on the lock plate. These have also been available through Track of the Wolf.
So if it is a reproduction, it may be the name of the person who assembled the lock or the person who did that and built the gun or the name of the owner or some other reason.
Gus
Remember that back in the day, LLP Besses had locks made on contract and put in stores till the guns were built. A lock marked 1747 and Edge, one of the known lock makers, might not have actually been assembled of several years or a decade. There are some wonderful merry mix-up examples of known earlier styles with later marked plates and later style guns with plates marked in the 1730's and 40's. Some have obviously had the lock cut outs reworked because the lock plates lost their curve in later LLP patterns. If you're trying to copy a particular gun, you need to post pictures or do some serious research to see if the musket style matches the lock plate date or whether it was assembled with an earlier or later lock or even had a different plate fitted some time in it's life. Good luck. We'll help all we can...good pictures would really help! :thumbsup:
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tree said:
If it was an approved Pattern Long Land Musket or Carbine and dated 1747 from a contractor, the lock plate should be a banana shaped plate to make it an authentic reproduction.
The nearly flat bottom lock plate was the next Pattern Lock found on P1756 Long Land Muskets and Carbines. So a 1757 dated lock would have had the flat bottomed plate. Perhaps that is the date you remember?
This information taken from Dr. De Witt Bailey's books on British Pattern Arms.
Gus
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track of the wolf has a book with a picture referencing it.
upper left corner view#3 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/294/1/BOOK-TBB
upper left corner view#3 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/294/1/BOOK-TBB
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Hi Tree,
Are you sure the date was not 1757?
dave
Are you sure the date was not 1757?
dave
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colorado clyde said:
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Just reviewed a enlarged picture of the lock and the date
Is very plainly 1747--no way the 4 could be a 5. I am
thinking someone had this Bess made up with a blank lock
Plate and then had it engraved with the 1747 date and
EDGE name.
Is very plainly 1747--no way the 4 could be a 5. I am
thinking someone had this Bess made up with a blank lock
Plate and then had it engraved with the 1747 date and
EDGE name.
A Short Land Pattern BB was auctioned in the UK
with a lock dated 1747 and Edge name. I could not
post the picture but if you google bamfords-auctions 1747 EDGE then the it should come up.
The reproduction lock I am looking at is shaped
like this one.
with a lock dated 1747 and Edge name. I could not
post the picture but if you google bamfords-auctions 1747 EDGE then the it should come up.
The reproduction lock I am looking at is shaped
like this one.
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tree said:
Yes, that sounds like it was the most likely way it got marked that way.
In your part of the world, the cast lock plate could have come from either E.J. Blackley & Son or Peter Dyson. Maybe someone else I have not heard of, as well?
I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Mr. Dyson at either the 1996 or 1998 World Championships at Wedgnock, UK, though I can't remember which one. I think I remember he did not personally come to both shoots, but had representatives at the other shoot?
I was also pleased to meet representatives of E.J. Blackley & Son at one or both shoots and they often come to the Annual Baltimore Antique Gun Show.
Gus
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SO does anybody know which arsenal originaly made the EDGE lock?
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Richard Edge was a gun lock maker who entered into government contracts along with William Grice.
I found musket gunlock contracts from 1756-8 and a pistol or it's lock that was made in 1760.
He is mentioned in "A History of Wednesbury" by Bev Parker.
The Gun trade
Birmingham was famous for its gun makers who used many components produced in the Black Country. Wednesbury businesses supplied large numbers of gunlocks and gun barrels, especially during wartime. Both Adams’s Forge and the iron mill at Wednesbury Bridge produced suitable high quality iron for the industry, which rapidly grew in the town. Most of the gunlock and barrel makers had their own small workshop, usually adjacent to their home. Most were self-employed, whereas others were “outworkers” for gunlock makers such as Richard Edge, who became one of the town’s more prosperous citizens. The trade rapidly grew, especially around the time of the Napoleonic Wars, but entered a slow decline afterwards.
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Wednesbury/EarlyIndustries.htm
Gus
I found musket gunlock contracts from 1756-8 and a pistol or it's lock that was made in 1760.
He is mentioned in "A History of Wednesbury" by Bev Parker.
The Gun trade
Birmingham was famous for its gun makers who used many components produced in the Black Country. Wednesbury businesses supplied large numbers of gunlocks and gun barrels, especially during wartime. Both Adams’s Forge and the iron mill at Wednesbury Bridge produced suitable high quality iron for the industry, which rapidly grew in the town. Most of the gunlock and barrel makers had their own small workshop, usually adjacent to their home. Most were self-employed, whereas others were “outworkers” for gunlock makers such as Richard Edge, who became one of the town’s more prosperous citizens. The trade rapidly grew, especially around the time of the Napoleonic Wars, but entered a slow decline afterwards.
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Wednesbury/EarlyIndustries.htm
Gus
1601phill said:
I went back to the Bamfords website and the 1747
EDGE was a SLP with 42 inch barrel which appears
very dark. The musket also was all brass mounted.
Don't have any reference books so can not tell if
this qualifies it as a black Sea Service musket.
I do not have the computer skills to copy the picture from Bamfords site but it is easy to
google up for anyone who wants too.
That gun looks to be a bunch of parts...certainly were no "Short Land Pattern" guns in 1747...two decades too soon. The lock certainly has LLP features but isn't compatible with the flat side plate, the ears on the side panels don't look correct and the forend appears overly heavy for the period. I think I'd back off until more questions can be answered. That gun never was a SLP...unless someone's added a LLP lock to a late gun and then other things look hinky. Sorry, but a lot of odd things going on there.
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Wes/Tex said:
That is an astute observation of the gun from Bamford's. It looks to me like a "parts gun" as well.
Some LLP's were shortened to 42" after they went to some Regiments for use by Light Infantry troops. Going to have to go back to the pictures and look again at the placement of the rammer pipes, to see if the pipes on the Bamford's gun are "off" as they would have been on a shortened musket.
The forearm, especially, stands out as way too bulky for the 1740's-1750's or even a Pedersoli stock made from the 1970's through at least the early 2000's.
The stock nose cap also is too late for a 1740's musket. I counted myself fortunate to have seen and been allowed to examine an original Bess at the Baltimore Antique Gun Show about 10 years ago. It had the early banana shaped lockplate and was dated either 1746 or 1747, I just can't remember and can't find the notes I took on the gun. The barrel was just under 42" and did not look like it had been shortened as the ramrod pipes were correctly spaced for a barrel that length and not "off" as they would have been on a shortened musket. It had a brass nosecap that was not as large as the later P1756 LLP's. The best I could figure from Bailey's Books, it was a P1748 Carbine or Fusil as the P1748's had an early brass nosecap. The P1748's were also the first general issue King's Musket to have iron rammers.
Gus
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I went back to the Bamfords site and unfortunately there is not enough of the stock forearm showing to see if the rammer pipes were "off" as they would have been on a shortened musket.
However, when I enlarged the photo showing the nose cap, I noticed the front of the nose cap is slanted a good deal and much more so than one would expect to find on a LLP or SLP or even when a LLP had the barrel shortened. I have no idea where that nose cap came from, but it does not look right at all.
Gus
However, when I enlarged the photo showing the nose cap, I noticed the front of the nose cap is slanted a good deal and much more so than one would expect to find on a LLP or SLP or even when a LLP had the barrel shortened. I have no idea where that nose cap came from, but it does not look right at all.
Gus
