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A steel shot what if?

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When I was 12 or13 I was given a smoothbore caplock gun by a guy at our church. He knew I was lusting over it so he just gave it to me. He had been a missionary in Brazil and a local man gave it to him for protection. The local gun shop told me it was .70 caliber, but they didn't have balls for it and recommend I use it for shot. After some mentoring by a helpful old farmer on how to load it with shot I was ready. But shot was out of my budget at that age. I had powder (2f) and caps but nothing else so...
My load was 70 grains powder, a piece of thick felt off an old saddle pad, 70 grain measure of daisy bb's and a was of wasp nest on top. I shot Evey squirrel, rabbit, woodchuck and porcupine I could with that gun until I was about 18. The bore still looked good and it later took a doe with a roundball. Take it for what it's worth
 
jackpine54 said:
When I was 12 or13 I was given a smoothbore caplock gun by a guy at our church. He knew I was lusting over it so he just gave it to me. He had been a missionary in Brazil and a local man gave it to him for protection. The local gun shop told me it was .70 caliber, but they didn't have balls for it and recommend I use it for shot. After some mentoring by a helpful old farmer on how to load it with shot I was ready. But shot was out of my budget at that age. I had powder (2f) and caps but nothing else so...
My load was 70 grains powder, a piece of thick felt off an old saddle pad, 70 grain measure of daisy bb's and a was of wasp nest on top. I shot Evey squirrel, rabbit, woodchuck and porcupine I could with that gun until I was about 18. The bore still looked good and it later took a doe with a roundball. Take it for what it's worth

At last a real account :hatsoff:

B.
 
It is only my understanding however any increase in pressure from steel shot shells is not down to the nature of the steel shot! It is purely from a strong desire to up the velocity in order to aid it's effective range.

While most may get hung up on the low velocity of a muzzleloader some aspects are over looked!
1, A huge pellet count rise over lead and 2, Huge amounts of small game are killed by pellets to the head and neck. Also wings.
3, Multiple strikes no matter what the energy figure will always be advantageous.
5, Where as shot shells in steel try to work out to forty yards or more most of us muzzleloaders are happy to thirty yards where upon a dense pattern may still be fast enough!

So far we have one account of someone using steel to get the job done numerous times with next to no damage or adverse effect to his gun.

I too made a card wrap for my faux trade gun and steel, no damage!

If ever I get my hands on a gun I don't care for I will test it for myself :thumbsup:

B.
 
You may darned well be right. I don't know :idunno: because I have never actually used this method on steel shot. It works well on hard lead shot. I have played with it in many ways and came up with a method to stop the cushion wad from going through my shot string. What I came up with was using a tiny dab of hot glue to stick a felt cushion wad to the middle of the + so that when the shot exited the barrel, the paper cup would open up and act sort of like a parachute to stop the cushion wad and let it drop to the ground a short distance from the muzzle rather than following and penetrating the shot string.

So, I assumed that if it worked for hard lead shot, it would work for steel shot. Maybe not. :idunno: Maybe something like an index card would be thick enough to protect the bore from the steel shot. Or, maybe it will take your idea of using leather to form the shot cup. Or waht about using a cheap chamois or one of those synthetic chamois to make your cups? If you used leather, you could probably pick it up off the ground and re-use it. It's an idea worth playing with. :thumbsup:
 
Don't know about the paper thing, but if you look at plastic wad columns designed for lead and those designed for steel, there is a marked difference. The cups for steel are much thicker and tougher. They were designed by ammunition companies because those that worked with lead didn't work for steel, and their purpose is two fold, to protect the barrel from contact with the steel and to provide cushioning for the steel pellets to allow them to conform to the barrel as they pass through it. This is the purpose of the filler as well.

The leather I thought may provide the protection, with its toughness, and the cushioning effect with its thickness. If I was going to use steel in my ML shotgun, without using plastic, that's what I would do, along with adding your nifty idea of hot glueing the wad to the cup to preserve pattern integrity :thumbsup: I just thought the leather might be a good idea for those who wanted, or needed to use steel, and desired to maintain the use of period materials.

I would think your idea of reusing the cups would be feasable too, even in a duck pond, as they probably would float with the cushion wad attached. Heck you could even train the dog to bring 'em back for you. For me it would keep him busy/happy when I missed :grin:

However, if I am forced to use a lead substitute, when I hunt waterfowl, I'll likely be using Bismuth/Tin. Out of cut open shells for a little, of my own alloying/making if I need a lot. I'll base my shot selection on the quality of type shot I use. If I need to shorten range I will, just use better camo and make a better set.

The whole lead shot ban is BS anyway. Even the studies point up that there are only a small number (compared to overall hunting areas) of locations that result in the accumulation and lethal ingestion of lead shot by waterfowl. Only an idiot would believe in and condone regulations for the goosehunter in a harvested grain field to have to use steel, while the pheasant hunter that came through yesterday was OK to use lead. Same for the duck hunter in a pond and the grouse/rabbit hunter that hunts the shorline.

Progressives just seized upon this as a "scientific" means to pave the way for more restriction, to make guns and shooting more expensive and more difficult, so there will be less participants and less resistance to their agenda. California is taking the next step right now, but I digress.

It is entertaining to think about making these guns more fun and useful. You have some great ideas for that :hatsoff:
 
Well I had a chrome lined 10ga pedersoli from cabelas. I noted the barrel(s) badly scored but thought it was cuz I used a stiff brass jag to clean...HOWEVER I had been shooting # 2 steel and daisy BB's so maybe it was that? Anyhows it didnt seem to hamper cleaning or patterns. I liked the power but as the barrels shot rt rt and left left (and I had yet to start reading here that was easily correctable) I sold it. Wish I had it back now. I do have a dbl 20 ga and may shoot steel at some ducks later but will use the paper rolls described above.
 
azmntman said:
Well I had a chrome lined 10ga pedersoli from cabelas. I noted the barrel(s) badly scored but thought it was cuz I used a stiff brass jag to clean...HOWEVER I had been shooting # 2 steel and daisy BB's so maybe it was that? Anyhows it didnt seem to hamper cleaning or patterns. I liked the power but as the barrels shot rt rt and left left (and I had yet to start reading here that was easily correctable) I sold it. Wish I had it back now. I do have a dbl 20 ga and may shoot steel at some ducks later but will use the paper rolls described above.

Another real account of little damage and no I'll effects after use! Thank you.

B.
 
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Britsmoothy said:
Another real account of little damage and no I'll effects after use! Thank you.

One thing for sure, you can expect to offer deep, deep discounts if you ever decide to sell a scored barrel! If you could sell it at all.
 
Britsmoothy said:
TNGhost said:
Paper's probably not gonna help. Do yourself, and your gun, a favor and get some of the plastic shot cup/wads designed for steel.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/PT2092-20ga-3-non-toxic-shot-wad-250_bag/productinfo/222PT2092/

Seems to me the peace of mind would be worth $10 :2

Some people don't want to use plastic in an traditional/primitive firearm, may as well stick to a breech loader :hmm:
If some want peace of mind they should follow the herd, maybe.

B.
What is the historical perspective on the traditional/primitive use of steel shot?

Perhaps the answer to your original question lies there. :idunno:
 
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TNGhost said:
Britsmoothy said:
TNGhost said:
Paper's probably not gonna help. Do yourself, and your gun, a favor and get some of the plastic shot cup/wads designed for steel.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/PT2092-20ga-3-non-toxic-shot-wad-250_bag/productinfo/222PT2092/

Seems to me the peace of mind would be worth $10 :2

Some people don't want to use plastic in an traditional/primitive firearm, may as well stick to a breech loader :hmm:
If some want peace of mind they should follow the herd, maybe.

B.
What is the historical perspective on the traditional/primitive use of steel shot?

Perhaps the answer to your original question lies there. :idunno:

Good point!
But plastic! That is borderline heresy :stir:

The real problem here is foolish law makers!

B :thumbsup:
 
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The above post is dead on.

Steel shot in a ML is an utter waste of time and powder. I know from first hand experience.
 
TNGhost said:

"Heck you could even train the dog to bring 'em back for you"

:doh:

Then, if you could manage to teach him how to load the gun for you, all you would have to do is sit back and drink coffee. :thumbsup: :rotf:

I do love the way you think. :hatsoff:
 
Billnpatti said:
TNGhost said:

"Heck you could even train the dog to bring 'em back for you"

:doh:

Then, if you could manage to teach him how to load the gun for you, all you would have to do is sit back and drink coffee. :thumbsup: :rotf:

I do love the way you think. :hatsoff:

Great solution to the age old problem of the ducks deciding to drop in just as you're pouring that cup! :haha:
 
I sold mine for $500.00 was happy for a used gun and would buy back for the same price. Im thinking what I saw was from the brass brush. Never saw scoring from steel shot but mine looked "scratched"? Mostly shot BB's in it but a few times I shot # 2 steel and once dismembered a coyote with .32 balls (cant recall how many it took in the (sorry) plastic cup) but it hurt me bad :shocked2: so I just shot it with .32 balls that one time.
 
I'll throw in some things concerning our potential use of steel shot and of the shot protectors potentially used therewith.

Most of us are shooting unchoked barrels, so any shot protection does not have to deal with the deformations and associated forces that come from pushing the shot load through forcing cones and/or chokes. Steel/tungsten-rated shotcups intended for modern shotshells, on the other hand, do have to deal with chokes and forcing cones, without scrubbing through or leaking shot between the petals, and preferably providing some cushioning during the reorganization of the shot charge as it is squeezed down through the constrictions. So those of us shooting plain unchoked barrels do not need as much protection as those shooting through chokes, and some of the hunters using steel shot in unchoked muzzleloaders report good results with various forms of home-made shotcups. In the somewhat limited testing I did at one time trying to develop a steel-shot load for my 16ga double, I found any shot protector configuration that resulted in two layers of business-card-weight card stock gave completely adequate protection, based on examination of my bore and of recovered shotcups or the remains thereof. In the end, I gave up on the development because I felt the recoil was too stout for the stock of a fairly light flintlock double, although I may try again with smaller shot charges.

Some shooters have reported success with steel shot within limitations they consider acceptable. Most hunters that report consistent success using steel shot in muzzleloaders are shooting ducks, and sometimes doves and/or "upland" birds in areas where non-toxic shot is required. I've found too few people reporting success with larger birds to generalize about them. Those successful with ducks and larger upland birds are mostly using #1-#3 size shot, sometimes #4 for teal and other smaller birds or for shorter ranges, and occasionally B or BB through chokes for the largest birds at longer ranges. They are consistently using more powder than the equal-volume load for the same weight of lead shot, commonly around 1/4-1/3 greater but sometimes up to 1/2 more. As an example, for a 1.1/4oz steel-shot load, the same volume of powder as a 1.1/4oz lead-shot charge is about 3dr/82gr, so 1/4 more would be 3.3/4dr/103gr (which happens to be the common 1.1/4oz-3.3/4dr "heavy field load" cartridge for a choked 12ga), while 1/3 more would be 4dr/109gr, and 1/2 more would be a rather stout 4.5dr/123gr. The same general principles apply for doves but often with somewhat smaller shot charges, and with shot sizes of #4-#6, maybe #7 but I cannot recall for sure. With conventional loads in unchoked muzzleloaders, these heavy powder charges would tend to open or completely blow the patterns, but the plastic steel-capable shotcups, and some of the homemade ones, tend to tighten the patterns and compensate for the heavy charges. On the other hand, chokes give very different dynamics in patterning, and can often benefit from higher velocities than cylinder bores. FYI, a volume of powder equal to the steel shot can range from 3/7 to 2/3 more (depending on shot size and measure diameter) than the lead-shot equal-volume load, which would be heavy loads of 4.1/4-5dr/117-137gr in the case of 1.1/4oz of shot. As is often the case, those reporting success with lower velocity loads tend to use larger shot sizes to get adequate penetration.

Muzzleloading smoothbores tend to be limited-range tools in general and steel shot tends to further constrain the range. With traditional muzzleloaders and B.P or substitutes, patterning and recoil (both shooter tolerance and possible damage to the stock) tend to constrain the maximum velocity, and velocity and shot size constrain penetration. Even with larger shot charges from choked barrels, I don't recall anyone mentioning effective ranges greater than 35 or 40 yards, and many, especially with unchoked barrels and/or smaller shot charges, tend to cite maximum consistently-effective ranges around 25 or 30 yards.

Regards,
Joel
 

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