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Amazing number of patch lube recommendatons

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The salt in powder is bound and wont react with a bore. You can load a gun and put it away for years with out a problem. Salt in the fat left from bacon or salt pork cooking is 'free' and can react with the metal. A larded or oiled patch can last as long as the powder, but bacon fat left in your gun will unleash the demon.
 
"Black powder is 75% salt. "

Technically, this is true. Potassium nitrate is a "salt" but it is not the kind of salt we most often think of when we use the word "salt". Technically, a salt is the product of a base and an acid. Because there are many bases and many acids, the number of salts that can be produced by this reaction is tremendous. Many are very reactive with steel or iron while others are less so. Common table salt (sodium chloride) is much more reactive with iron than potassium nitrate. I won't bother you with the chemistry involved but suffice it to say that the salt, potassium nitrate, that is found in gun powder is nowhere as reactive with iron as common table salt and can be left in contact with the bore of a rifle for indefinite lengths of time with no ill effects to the bore so long as no moisture gets into the powder.

The salt that if found in incompletely processed lard is sodium chloride or common table salt. This is very corrosive to iron or steel.
 
Yep, good old spit is hard to beat in every one of my rifles. I have tried many different things and occasionally will use something other than spit but, spit is my main patch lube these days. :thumbsup:
 
Just like "Davy", I use pre-lubed patches from Ox-Yoke.

Since wonderlube is a patented trade secret I don't even know, wonder or care what the lube actually is.

It works fine and gives me one less thing to worry about.

I can shoot without micrometers, scales, chemistry sets and small capped/stoppered bottles and patch knives :)

I can't imagine the day when I have developed into such an "outstandingly superior shot" that any minimal difference in patch thickness or lube component percentages will effect the impact point to any perceptible degree using a pre-lubed, off the shelf product.

Davy-oxyoke_zps59adc9f4.jpg
 
galamb said:
I can't imagine the day when I have developed into such an "outstandingly superior shot" that any minimal difference in patch thickness or lube component percentages will effect the impact point to any perceptible degree using a pre-lubed, off the shelf product.
A lot of people can imagine just exactly that, though, and they do. 564,765 of them. :haha:

Spence
 
nchawkeye said:
Last count, 564,765 different lubes... :grin:

There was a change to the count over the weekend.

However rendered Pink Flamingo and Hyaena grease have passed final testing with an acceptable mark and were added to the list for a net gain of one. This action was praised by "traditionalists."
 
CalGunner said:
There was a change to the count over the weekend.

However rendered Pink Flamingo and Hyaena grease have passed final testing with an acceptable mark and were added to the list for a net gain of one. This action was praised by "traditionalists."

It appears that's not all that got changed.
 
yes davy used those wonder lube from ox yoke. Dan'el used borebutter from tc, but not a one of them could shoot as well as titus bass and he used mike oil :haha:
 
A lot of times, ML's worry about the salt in their lubes and long-term storage greases. I think that is a reasonable concern. Additionally, I often wonder about the affect of the acidity of the oils in the lubes and preservatives used for long-term storage. Some oils contain moderately high acidity levels that can damage the bore during storage, and possibly even over a number of years when used as a lube. For instance, Wikipedia warns the following about Ballistol:

"It advertises it has no carcinogens. Some other similar chemicals contain petro-chemicals which can pollute the environment if improperly handled, and can damage the 'seasoning' developed on the bore of a black-powder gun."

I certainly want to protect the bore of my black-powder gun. I have a new one, and I want to build up any seasoning possible.

I do not want to damage the reputation of Ballistol, but the acidity will gently eat away anything with copper, which is one of the components of my brass fixtures. If used for long-term storage, it can gradually eat away at any soft metal. Several tests show that it fails to protect from rust when the item encounters a humid environment, possibly because it is a mild acid.

When choosing any lube for use as a storage protectant, I try to consider the acidity of the lube in addition to other considerations. It is hard to imagine that the acidity would remove any seasoning effect on the barrel. After all, black powder is quite high in acidity. But we neurtralize the acidity when we wash it with soap and water. And especially for long-term storage, I certainly try to eliminate the oils that contain acidity.

Every once in a while I read a posting where a shooter found his favorite ML rusting even after carefully putting it up with his favorite oil slathered in the bore. And I wonder if the mild acidity of the oil had any affect over time.
 
NWD said:
A lot of times, ML's worry about the salt in their lubes and long-term storage greases. I think that is a reasonable concern. Additionally, I often wonder about the affect of the acidity of the oils in the lubes and preservatives used for long-term storage. Some oils contain moderately high acidity levels that can damage the bore during storage, and possibly even over a number of years when used as a lube. For instance, Wikipedia warns the following about Ballistol:

"It advertises it has no carcinogens. Some other similar chemicals contain petro-chemicals which can pollute the environment if improperly handled, and can damage the 'seasoning' developed on the bore of a black-powder gun."

I certainly want to protect the bore of my black-powder gun. I have a new one, and I want to build up any seasoning possible.

I do not want to damage the reputation of Ballistol, but the acidity will gently eat away anything with copper, which is one of the components of my brass fixtures. If used for long-term storage, it can gradually eat away at any soft metal. Several tests show that it fails to protect from rust when the item encounters a humid environment, possibly because it is a mild acid.

When choosing any lube for use as a storage protectant, I try to consider the acidity of the lube in addition to other considerations. It is hard to imagine that the acidity would remove any seasoning effect on the barrel. After all, black powder is quite high in acidity. But we neurtralize the acidity when we wash it with soap and water. And especially for long-term storage, I certainly try to eliminate the oils that contain acidity.

Every once in a while I read a posting where a shooter found his favorite ML rusting even after carefully putting it up with his favorite oil slathered in the bore. And I wonder if the mild acidity of the oil had any affect over time.

What "tests?" Anything scientific? I've used Ballistol for years with zero rust problems. I suspect it would not have the terrific reputation it does if what you say is true. I'll wait for the tests...
 
Members of this forum note on several postings that whenever two muzzle loaders get together to talk about patch lubes, three opinions seem to result! :wink:

As a new muzzle loader (ML) thoroughly bitten by a love of this sport, I feel obligated to embrace confusion. However, as someone who loves science and technology, I will try to add to my own confusion by using science and technology to increase the confusion. Maybe science and technology can help to inform me as I look at the myriad of patch lube options. And I look forward to your insights, tongue-in-cheek and otherwise. So here goes:

In some ways, I see similarities between the barrel of the ML and an engine cylinder. Each is essentially a cylinder. And both cylinders require a breaking-in time period. Every cylinder looks smooth to the naked eye, but under a microscope the walls actually show microscopic ridges and valleys somewhat similar to the cross-section diagram below:

]New Cylinder Wall[/url]

These microscopic valleys hold oil that helps to lubricate the cylinder walls as the engine piston goes up and down, or as the RB goes down the bore. The breaking-in period serves an important function in which the ridges gradually wear down so the piston rings better seal the pressures within the cylinder. Under a microscope, the cylinder walls after break-in look more similar to the diagram below:

]Cylinder Wall After Break-in[/url]

Although the tips of the ridges wear down, microscopic valleys still exist that help to hold the oil on the surface of the steel. On an engine, the cylinder break-in period often lasts for the first 100 hours. Many ML’s report that their rifling stopped tearing holes in their patches after about 100 shots. That is, the friction of the patch against the cylinder wall during each shot helps to polish away the microscopic ridges in the bore and rifling.

Like an engine, however, cylinder glaze can reduce the performance of an ML. Glaze occurs when an oil or other lubricant gets burned and embedded into the microscopic valleys of the cylinder. The burned lubricant clogs the microscopic valleys so the cylinder walls no longer hold oil on the surface of the cylinder wall. In an automotive engine, the glaze often looks like a dark yellow film.

]Cylinder Wall With Glaze[/url]

Instead of a tight fit that is lubricated by oil, the piston rings skate/jump over the cylinder surface, letting pressure escape between the two. Automotive engines suffer from glaze most when the engine stays cool such as when they operate at low speeds or idle. Due to the slow reload speed for an ML, the gun barrel also stays relatively cool. Regardless, effective cleaning between shots should eliminate any glaze build-up. But the possibly of glaze build-up probably increases when the shooter uses patch lubes that burn at low temperatures, or uses non-oil based cleaners that double as patch lubes. These cleaners sometimes contain chemicals and solids that burn into a glaze. Shooters who choose to shoot multiple rounds without a separate cleaning cycle may eventually see glaze build-up depending on the heat tolerance and chemical properties of their patch lube.

Try to imagine an automotive engine that uses water, soap, or a petroleum based cleaner as the engine lubricant. Anyone who steps on a wet tile floor knows that the water can act like a lubricator””they quickly end up on their fanny. However, oil almost always lubricates better than water. Likewise, an oil based patch lube will almost always lubricate with less wear than a water-based cleaner or a petroleum-based cleaner. Kerosene and other petroleum based cleaners can also function as a lubricant, and sometimes function as a lubricant within a fuel system. However, they rarely lubricate as well as an oil when exposed to a harsh environment such as a combustion chamber. Many shooters note that they have used cleaners for many years successfully as a patch lube. However, the surface tension of water prevents the water droplet from flowing into the microscopic ridges as thoroughly as an oil. So, the microscopic ridges in the bore will hold oil much better than water.

As a new ML, I have been using a water-based patch lube. So I know that a water-based lube will certainly work. But as a general rule, the oil-based lube should offer less wear in the barrel. Therefore, I will probably choose to switch to an oil-based patch lube in the near future.
In addition to the patch lube, the between-shot cleaner affects a lot, including wear. When the microscopic ridges fill with anything other than the patch lube, then the lubrication is reduced. For this reason, even petroleum based cleaners will probably cause more wear than a good patch oil. And sometimes a good patch oil can also often function as a bore cleaner for between-shot swabbing. So I am leaning toward using the patch oil as a bore cleaner, too.

I've been trying to look up the properties of some of the common lubes. Some oil based lubes are moderately high in acid. That doesn't make any difference so long as you don't also use it to preserve your barrel for storage.

Bees wax has an acid index of 17-36. So I'm leaning away from it for anything in storage.

Some oils contain moderately high acidity levels that can damage the bore during storage, and possibly even over a number of years when used as a lube. For instance, Wikipedia warns the following about Ballistol:

"It advertises it has no carcinogens. Some other similar chemicals contain petro-chemicals which can pollute the environment if improperly handled, and can damage the 'seasoning' developed on the bore of a black-powder gun."

I certainly want to protect the bore of my black-powder gun. I have a new one, and I want to build up all the seasoning possible.

I do not want to damage the reputation of Ballistol, but the acidity will gently eat away anything with copper, which is one of the components of my brass fixtures. If used for long-term storage, it can gradually eat away at the soft metal. Several tests (see www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9308.0) show that it fails to protect from rust when the item encounters a humid environment, possibly because it is a mild acid. (Please note that I cannot get the above webpage to show the correct address. However, if you search for Ballistol - A Good Rust Preventative? Fact or Fiction, you should be able to find it.)

When choosing any lube as a storage protectant, I try to consider the acidity of the lube in addition to other considerations. It is hard to imagine that the acidity would remove any seasoning effect on the barrel. After all, black powder is quite high in acidity. Fortunately, we neurtralize the acidity when we wash the barrel with soap and water. And especially for long-term storage, I certainly try to eliminate the oils that contain acidity.

Every once in a while I read a posting where a shooter found his favorite ML rusting even after carefully putting it up with his favorite oil slathered in the bore. And I wonder if the oil that he used included a mild acidity that could affect the bore over time.
Canola oil has an acid index of only .071 and is very tolerant to high temperatures (good to 400F) such as those found inside an ML barrel. And Criso is made from hydroginated Canola oil, so it also has the same low acid index and temperature tolerance. Because it tolerates high temperature, a lot of shooters find that it works well as a patch lube.

Peanut oil has an acid index of only 3-4 and is also tolerant of high temperatures (good to 400F).

Extra virgin olive oil has an acid index of less than 7--also extremely low. Regular olive oil is higher in acid. But neither tolerates heat as well as canola or peanut oil.

So there are numerous options. At first look, canola oil and Crisco seem to meet all the criteria for a temperature tolerant ball lube. Crisco can also function as a low acid storage protectant. However, a lot of shooters note that it seems messy to work with. So there are probably some drawbacks to every option.
Based on the above, I am tempted to switch to canola oil or peanut oil for a patch lube and for a between-shot cleaner, and Crisco for a bore protector during long-term storage. By using the same oil for a patch lube as used for a bore cleaner, the barrel should season more thoroughly.
 
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Any actual test data that shows that Ballistol "fails to protect from rust when the item encounters a humid environment"?
 
Another thought:

I would never try to wash my mother's favorite iron skillet in soap and water because it would remove some of the "seasoning." That seasoning is the oil that permeates the grains for the iron, and gives it an extra measure of lubrication that actually seaps out of the pores/grains of metal.

However, I've been doing the same thing to my ML that I would never consider doing to my mother's skillet. So now I'm starting to rethink my approach to how I lube my patches and clean between shots. I'm unsure where this thinking will take me, but I'll probably try some new approaches.
 
Just like I've probably been stripping out the seasoning in my MO bore with a water/soap between shot cleaner, I think that others may be stripping out the seasoning with a petroleum based cleaner such as WD-40, Ballistol, brake fluid, and similar products. These products clean extremely well partly because they contain a mild acid.

Hydocloric acid is nasty stuff, but when combined with water it is 10 times worse. I'm sure these cleaners never approach the harshness of hydocloric acid, but I'm also wondering if a low-acid oil might prove easier on the barrel even while decreasing the wear. I suspect that the rust is sometimes stimulated as much by the mild acid in some cleaners as the humidity.
 
tenngun said:
yes davy used those wonder lube from ox yoke. Dan'el used borebutter from tc, but not a one of them could shoot as well as titus bass and he used mike oil :haha:


:nono: :shake: If it don't come in a plastic bottle from Wal-Mart, it's no good. :wink: :rotf:
 
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Great insights!!!!

It seems that there is always room for more learning. While I now see that seasoning a barrel is probably inappropriate, I still wonder about the need for a good lube oil.
 
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