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Schools, Historical Accuracy, and Getting Started

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Rudykronauge

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I have always been an avid shooter and hunter, but I have never had the opportunity to get into traditional muzzleloading like I've always wanted to, as modern guns dominate in my family. I've always been fascinated by American history and most notably, the Longrifle (I've always called them Kentucky's, but I've since realized the truly vast number of varying styles), and I would like to save up and purchase a quality rifle that closely follows historical accuracy. I've come to realize the gross inaccuracies of production "Kentucky Rifles" and thought the Pedersoli Blue Ridge might be a winner, but have since ruled that out as well. In delving into the topic deeper and deeper, I have settled on Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading as making some beautiful rifles that fit the upper-end of a feasible price range for me. I still am learning and have many questions before I decide on a particular model, and perhaps may go with a different company all together based on what you folks tell me. First, what exactly separates the different "schools" of longrifles? I love the styling and shape of the Southern and Tennessee rifles, but I have seen some Berks county and Lehigh's that look mighty similar. And speaking of the TVM Southern and Tennessee, what time frame might these rifles fall into? I kind of want a gun accurate to the period between the end of the Revolution and the fur trade, something that might have been carried in Tennessee/Kentucky/Ohio around the year 1800. This gun will not be used for any reenacting or competitions, it is purely for me to hunt and shoot with and connect with my roots back to a simpler and fascinating time. I do want to keep it historically accurate or at least extremely representative for my own personal satisfaction of being as close to history as possible. I have wanted one of these rifles for quite some time now, and can't see myself hunting with much else after I get it. I thank you all for any advice, as there is so much to learn on this subject and not very many resources to learn from.
 
Today? Knowing what I know!? The Pennsylvania Rifle if you can handle the length. The fancy Dixie version if you must. Oh, by Pedersoli.

Lotta people have to protect and defend their investments but TVM I would not buy except in person if I were you...
 
The (idea) of "schools" is a somewhat modern way to describe a group/collection of rifles or builders, normally from the same geographical area who shared a similar architecture/design of their rifles.

That's not to say they were all identical or nearly identical, but shared enough characteristics that they got "grouped" into a particular "school".

Most of the "off the shelf" rifles only moderately resemble the name attached to them. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing but if YOU want something more "historically correct" to a specific school/period they may not satisfy you.

TVM, Sitting Fox and a couple of others build rifles that are more of a "collage" of a given school than a specific builder. They might mish/mash a 30 year period taking things for this rifle or that to end up with a "representative of a school" type rifle.

Without judging the quality of their product or potential issues dealing with them, they do produce a product that fills a gap between "off the shelf" rifles and those built by custom builders or "self-built" rifles.

These are sometimes described as "semi-custom". Like many "package deals" the initial "base price" is quite attractive but if you decide to "add the options" the cost can escalate significantly.

If you decide you want a rifle representative of a specific builder from a specific school from a specific time period, you will not find it with an off the shelf or semi-custom rifle.
 
From another topic in the 1812 forum. OP was asking about circa 1813 rifle. I think it applies here as well.
The best thing for you to do, is to really research and study American Longrifles.

It's my opinion that rifles made from 1800 to about 1820 are the pinnacle of the American longrifle. In a sense, rifles from that era are hard to describe in words. If you do some real research on these rifles and their architecture, you can easily spot them. It's one of those things, with some education you'll know it when you see it.

I'll try to give a brief description of a rifle made during that era, 1800s-1810s.

Long, Slender and Refined.

Barrel: 42 to 50+ inches in length with 42 to 46 inches being quite common. Hand forged barrels will be swamped or tapered. The swamp will not be as profound as on a 18th Century rifle. In this era you start to see early factory straight barrels. Keep in mind that even some hand forged "swamped" barrels from this era, have such a slight swamp that it is not detectible by the naked eye. Caliber .30s to mid .50s with mid to upper .40s being the most common.
Barrels can be Cold rust blued, charcoal blued, in the white or browned.

Wood: Maple, Walnut, Cherry, Ash and other oddball woods in that order. I would say mid-grade maple by far the most common.

Stock: Here is where IMHO, it's difficult to put into words. Firstly is a certain grace, They do not call it the "Golden Age" for nothing. One feature that I see that is quite common in this era and seems to be found in many regions is a Oh So slight Roman nose in the comb and a Oh So slight gentle curve on the bottom of the stock from the triggerguard to the toe.

As time progresses inlays tend to replace carving as decoration. In this era you see many rifles with a pleasant balance of carving and inlays.

A good majority of these rifles will be trimmed in brass. In the South you really start to the early iron trimmed mountain rifles, sometimes with a mixture of iron and brass. Some high end rifles will be trimmed in silver or have a mixture of silver and brass.

Engraving like carving seems to be less and less as the years go by.

Butt plates will have a gentle curve, not as flat as Rev War or early Golden Age but not as severe a curve as the later crescent butts.

Barrels can be pinned or keyed.

Full metal "Brass" patch boxes most are engraved some not. Wood boxes can still be found especially on rifles by older makers like Beck but they tend to be an exception for the era. A wood box rifle tends to be less decorated than a Metal box rifle.

Lock: English export locks like the Ketland Design and American hardware variety locks are quite common even on some Penn made rifles. Early in the era the locks will have a pointed "teet" at the rear of the plate. As the era progresses, circa 1810, locks with rounded off tails come into to style. Some makers still continue to make their own locks or use the Germanic style like Beck, Dickert and Armstrong.

Sights will be Lowww, especially the front sight and commonly with a silver blade. Some front sight blades are so low and long the are hard to see from the side.

Keep in mind these are my observations of a "common" circa 1810 rifle. They're are many different regions and schools of rifles from this period. Some Rifles like all things made by the hand of man from that era man may be different than described above. So it's up to you to study and confirm the style and region of rifle you want.
 
Welcome to the forum. You are right, there's much to learn, Track of the Wolf and Log Cabin Shop both offer many books on long rifles. The Kentucky Rifle Foundation also offers books and DVD's, Like this site, the American Longrifles site contains a wealth of information. Enjoy the journey.
 
The boys above offer some good advice. I just read your post and smiled however. Soon you will have your riflegun. Then you will want a horn to match it. You will need a bag to go a long with it. Soon you will need a riflemans frock "just to wear while your shooting". Then you will need some pants to go along with your coat, and so on and so on. It wont be long till your a dyed in the capote traditional front stuffer. Welcome to the group.
 
Might as well toss in my nickle's worth as well. Everybody's comments are very good. There is a lot to learn and the "long rifle" itself is a wide and deep subject. It's hard to know just what started where and when, though some facts are fairly certain. Most of what we now think of as Penn. or Kentucky rifles began in eastern and central Penn. sometime around 1750ish...and 'ish' can be a wide brush. As mentioned earlier the term "school" is a more recent moniker to describe guns from certain geographical areas that resemble each other in general style. It's one of those things where someone produces a style that his customers favor and other area rifle makers may copy and modify the style to suit local taste, but the 'sameness' is evident, to some degree, of guns made in different areas. I wouldn't concern yourself too much with this unless you eventually decide to make or have made a rifle of a particular area.

Price, maker, style and features you'll have to decide at some point but for now, I'd recommend you read and look around to see what' there is and what might suit your intentions. Depending on whether you're looking for a hunting rifle, something for targets, even re-enacting may help you make a final decision. TOTW, Dixie TVM and others have used and new rifles on their sites all the time. Whether you can afford a particular piece, look at the photos and see if a particular style looks "right" to you. Alden had a point too, not all the Italian made guns are totally non-historical. Some could use a little cosmetic work and some will be available used that may have already had that done. Keep an eye on the "classified" sections here and other muzzleloading sites...sometimes goodies just jump right out and bite you!

Make a choice that's right for you and what you intend to use the rifle for. As Tenngun said, next thing you'll need is all the 'fallderall' that goes with them...then you'll need a good smoothbore for doves and ducks...see where this is going!!??? The fun just never ends! When you decide what you want, we'll all try to see you get going on the right track with the right gear...but remember to have fun. :wink: :thumbsup:
 
You are not too far from Friendship Indiana. Check out the National Muzzleloading Long Rifle Association (NMLRA). They have a big shoot every year in June. Thousands of shooters and hundreds of dealers. If you want a wide exposure to what is available out there, show up at Friendship the first weekend and spend some time.
 
I don't know much on custom muzzleloaders, however, i built one this winter. poor boy style w small siler and 42 inch A weight colerian barrel in .36. I just looked up picts of what a poor boy looked like and went from there. Itcame out nice. There are a couple of inletting flaws in it but I enjoy it greatly...I suggest building your own..I spent about 60 hours on it over the winter and it shoots great...Just a suggestion for you. If you have some wood working skills and are willing to read some you can build what you want...or at least very close. i would suggest tow kit.
 
You didn't say what you're willing to spend. Also, do you want to build it yourslf or buy a finished rifle ot something in between which could be a rifle "in the white" or buying a parts set and having a builder assemble it.

A Southern LR of a certain area or one of the Pennsylvania LRs of a particular "school" {area or style} are available in all the possibilities mentioned above, but would require some research to determine exactly what you want....this could be a "fun time" for you.

Also...how HC/PC and of what time period do you want your LR to be? This would also entail research on your part.

Good luck w/ your quest......Fred
 
My poorboy is a TVM, built and signed by Jack Garner about 20 years ago. I am very happy with it. :thumbsup: The lock fits the stock, the stock fits me and it shoots better than me. It has a 42 inch Green Mountain barrel. What I like is it is not a replica, but an interpretation of a late 1700's Poorboy. Is it absolutely perfect fit for the 1700's? No. But it works for me and most people (non-muzzle loaders)are surprised at it's age.

The only time I clamped it down on a bench it put 3 shots in the same hole, at 50 yards, without swabbing between shots. I don't know about TVM's products now, but the Poorboy I bought 20 years ago is great.

 
FYI Rudy I'm not sure if you know this or not But there are two TVM's Tennessee Valley Manufacturing & Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading. :idunno:
 
Wow! Thank you to everyone for all the responses and advice so quick! I really do appreciate all the help and guidance.

To Alden- I will keep your experience with TVM in mind. However, through my research I think I know too much now to go with a production gun! I know there are many custom/semi-custom builders out there that I need to research; I've only started to scratch the surface.

To Galamb- I was always confused at to what exactly constituted a "school". Even if the rifle I finally settle one does not fit a particular maker or exact region to a "T", I think I will be ok with that, but I still want something representative of a general time period and region. I almost think now that the "collage" style of the semi-custom makers you referred to appeals to me now. Like you said, price really adds up quick though! In looking at the TVM Southern, I thought, "well, it would sure look pretty in brass, and then a patchbox might compliment it really well..."

To 54Ball- Thank you so much for posting that segment! That sums up about perfectly what I am looking for in my first rifle, even though I struggled to put it into words. I kinda-sorta know the direction I want to go, but struggled to figure out what style or period it was, which has ultimately come to influence my decision. I was not aware that this period was the "golden age" of longrifles, but like the article said, the gentle curves and overall stock shape, and of course that looong barrel. I'm glad it also gives a little direction in terms of swamped vs. tapered vs. straight in rifles of this period. Again, huge help and sums up perfectly what I'm looking for.

To rf50cal- Thank you very much for the resources, I honestly wasn't sure where to begin and I definitely want to do some thorough research and see what fits my interests best before I settle on any particular gun. Not to mention the fascinating history behind the progression of the rifle that I'd like to learn anyway.

To tenngun- Thank you for the kind words. I've become so focused on the actual rifle I had only dabbled slightly in the accoutrements to go along with it. But I suppose you're right, as I can't see myself stopping at just the rifle. After all, how true to history can you be if all your accessories don't match the same period? I forsee this as a slippery slope. It might be awhile before I can save up for a proper gun, but after that point, I'm sure it takes off quick!

To Wes/Tex- That fact that you and tenngun both said the same thing about the all the "goodies" to buy/make and different routes to take once I get into this leads me to believe you may have seen before how this turns out! Thanks for the tip about the classifieds section on here. I have no qualms about buying used if it fits the style I'm looking for. Especially on a college budget.

To Many Klatch- I had never heard of NMLRA, or their meeting in Friendship. My family lives in Southwest Ohio, and we have a farm out in Preble county, so we are right close to the Indiana line. I am currently going to school in Ft. Myers, Fl, but I'm going home for the summer and if the dates work out I might just have to go check it out.

To twig- that sounds like a beautiful rifle. I had wanted to look into something in a smaller caliber like your .36, but there's no way I could afford two guns at this time, and I need something that would drop deer, or maybe even hogs if I take the gun to Florida with me. I have thought about building something myself, but not sure that I trust myself to not screw it up! Maybe that's a good thing, as I would be more cautious. I do have friends and neighbors with woodshops and plenty of experience that could guide me, so it might be an option.

To flehto- Being on a college budget, I want to spend as little as possible, but then again, don't we all? I may be young but I have come to learn that quality comes at a price, and also that you don't have to spend a fortune to find something that suits your needs. I am not going to be anal about everything being 100% pc, but I do want it to be damn close. This is why I kind of came to settle on the TVM guns and about a $1,000 price point. That is an absolutely huge sum for me right now, but I would rather wait and save up as opposed to buying something now and being disappointed in the long run. I am definitely not opposed to used guns as well, and I know there are some beautiful ones that show up periodically so I will certainly be keeping an eye out. As far as period and style, I've settled on the time of longhunters and eastern exploration in Kentucky and Tennessee and the Ohio river valley. Call me the stereotypical greenhorn, but the independent styles and forays of Boone, Crockett, and similar men really interest me (I know Crockett and Boone were seperated by a number of years, but hoped the rifle-style between the two might overlap). If I am not mistaken, this puts me in a period of about 1800 up to the F&I War, correct? I cannot discern all the longrifle types precisely, but I know what looks good to me, and I love the Southern Rifle offered by TVM. This would fit this period, correct? I also like the Tennesse style, but it is my understanding this came much later.

To Orthod- Beautiful gun! Not the exact style I think I'll go with for my first but a beauty nonetheless. Which poorboy model is that? I could not find one that seemed to match it on the TVM website, unless it's the "manufacturing" TVM that I'm not familiar with yet. And I share your same view; I don't need an exact replica from the period, but a close interpretation is a must.

To id5054- I've heard of Lodi but couldn't tell you where exactly it is. I'm from just west of Dayton. I'll have to look into the log cabin.

To smo- I am aware that there are two different TVM's, but I am not familiar with the "manufacturing" one. I spelled out the name in my original post to try and clarify. It is the only site I have really checked out so far, I will have to research the "other one".

Sorry to be so long-winded! Ironic that I am supposed to be writing a paper right now and here I sit typing this instead. Thanks again to everyone for the help. This site has already become a valuable resource.
 
This forum is a great resource. Check out the gun builder section. You will see pics of many different styles there. I used to get on this forum every day and before I knew it I had learned quite a bit.

I would find a local gun club that has black powder shoots. It wasn't until I went to my first and seen the different guns did I realize how much variety there is.

Don't be afraid to start out with a TC or CVA "hawken" just to get started. It will be a good back up when you do decide what you really want.
 
There are many things that go into the differences between the various "schools" but the general shape of the comb and underside of the stock butt plays a large part.

These drawings from Dixie Gunworks gives an idea of the differences.





In all of the sketches the stock blank size and shape are constant.
 
reelinrudy said:
To Orthod- Beautiful gun! Not the exact style I think I'll go with for my first but a beauty nonetheless. Which poorboy model is that? I could not find one that seemed to match it on the TVM website, unless it's the "manufacturing" TVM that I'm not familiar with yet. And I share your same view; I don't need an exact replica from the period, but a close interpretation is a must.

I bought the poorboy from TVM (manufacturing) about 20 years ago and my memory is not allowing any model other than Poorboy through the fog. Jack Garner made the rifle and I don't know if he is making rifles anymore. He may have sold his company. Somebody else on the forum may have more information.
When I bought it I was looking for a left handed flintlock. A friend recommended Jack. It was the early days of public access to the internet, so I bought it without seeing what it could look like, just Jack describing it over the phone. About nine months after I wrote him a check (finger crossed with that quantity of $$$) a box was left on my porch. :thumbsup:
 
The Southern Mountain Rifle or Tennessee rifle offered by many suppliers is a mixture of parts from different times and places. Usually the deeply curved, narrow buttplate is styled from originals from around 1830 and up. Same with the guards. They often use a Siler flintlock which is a 1770s to 1780s lock. Why? Because in the 1970s when most of these kits and the generic style was developed, the Siler was the best lock available and it was available. None of this matters unless you want more than an approximation, or to pass a 30 yards away "exam".

A good example of a contemporary iron mounted longrifle where all the components fit in the same timeframe is this one by Mark Elliott, a careful student and fine craftsman. http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/03/iron-mounted-southern-longrifle-by-mark.html

Notice the buttplate curvature is not severe and the width of the buttplate is 1 and 3/4". That makes it a nice shooting gun. Though decorated, the fine architecture is well worth emulating in a plainer gun.

Here is a fine, plainer contemporary rifle by Marc Tornichio who is a smith who forges his own buttplates and guards. Excellent lines. http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/05/marc-tornichio.html

For something styled a little later, check out my favorite Keith Lisle rifle. http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/09/tennessee-mountain-rifle-by-keith-lisle.html
 
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