Need Repair Ideas

I just remembered this technique http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/#step1

You will need to make a couple simple modifications for your purposes. First, rather than using this kind of battery charger, use an old cell phone charger. We all have several of them laying around in drawers. Just cut off the end of the wire and peel back some of the insulation to expose the wires. The other thing you will need is a straight steel rod or straight stiff steel wire. They must be made of steel. Then you will need four or five rubber O rings that will fit tightly on the rod. Wrap some electrical tape around the tip of the rod so that it doesn't touch the inside of your barrel and place the rubber O rings evenly spaced along the rod. Be sure to have one right at the muzzle so that when you put the rod into your barrel it doesn't touch anywhere. If the rod touches the barrel anywhere, the process won't work. Stand your barrel up so you can fill it with the washing soda solution. Put the rod into your barrel and clip the leads from your cell phone charger to the barrel and to the rod as instructed in the attached procedure. Plug in the charger and let it work. If done correctly, it will remove the rust but you can't hurt your barrel.

Crocket it's not so much that the pitting would stop the ball but that the pitting would allow gasses to go around it and not push it forward and out. I don't think this rifle is that bad though. As you mention the rifling is shallow so if I can still see it then I'm not to bad off and what pitting is there is minimal. I think the barrel will be fine with a good cleaning.

I will mention the drum to the gun smith. I never knew it was different and never had a problem with it. If the Smith is fine with it I'm not changing it. I think your right a good run through on general maintenance would be good for me.

I have shot both conicle and round ball. I actually prefer conicle. I find it easier to seat and more accurate. It does cause the rifle to kick a bit more but not overly so.

Billnpatti thanks for the idea. It's incredible what a bit of science can do. I may just give it a try.

curator said:

OtherDan,
It appears that your rifle had the "drum" replaced at some time since the one in the picture is not original.

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As TheHorn described in an earlier post, CVA used a proprietary and very strong breeching system. The way the drum was fitted to the breechplug was integral to the strength of the breech and if your rifle was refit with a conventional drum it may very well be significantly weaker. By all means, heed the advice of other posters and have the rifle examined by a black powder gunsmith.

As for the breech plug and drum, what some say about the interthreaded breech and drum is true for the hooked breech guns, that did not start until about 1979 with the Mountain rifle and frontier rifle. The Kentucky rifle pictured in the OP has the inch wide spacer between the two pieces of the stock. That means the OP's gun was produced before 1979. I have 1971, 1974 and 1979 CVA catalogs. The wide sheet metal spacer is no longer present in the 1979 version of the Kentucky model. As a result, I suspect the drum is not threaded through the breech plug like the later hooked breech guns. i would still recommend against removal. such removal is solely for a last resort before destroying the gun.

That's good info zimmerstutzen. :thumbsup: Larry

Thanks zimmerstutzen. The history is very informative. I have no intention of removing any thing at this point. I'm taking it in Monday to the gun smith to get the lock fixed and I'll get his take on the rest.

It would be very informative to hear from someone who has de-breeched one of these older guns to make a definite determination of the breeching system. There are so many in existence that it is certain there has been a lot of gunsmithing performed on them. Cross section photos of the hooked breech rifles are readily available, but something similar with the older models, even first hand descriptions, would be welcome.

I'm sorry to say this but I have to disagree. I had an aquantiance who sheared the drum off in a .45 cal. CVA Kentucky while removing the breechplug. It must have taken quite a bit of force to do it but he mannaged. This was circa '78 and was how we learned about the interconnected system. He had it repaired by shortening the barrel and installing a conventional breechplug/drum system. This was a kit gun with a brass spacer though I don't remember whether it was a short or long one.

Shearing a rusted fast drum is easy with either type of breech. Especially with the mild steel used.

even with conventional breech and drum smiths sometimes notch the corner of the plug to accommodate a touch hole or drum. Even my original Barnet 1853 with welded bolster had a corner of the plug notched for a clear flash channel

I'm not too knowledgeable on this so bear with me. As I understand it the CVA drum screws partially into the breech plug. Now, lets say someone takes the original drum off and then removes the breech plug. They then put the breech plug back in and TRY to put in the original drum but the breech plug is a little off and the drum won't fit. SO...they buy a new drum and screw that in up to the bore area. It would seem to me that this would leave a pocket of space in the breech plug area where fouling and then rust might accumulate. Also, I wasn't certain whether CVA designed their firearms where the force holding in the breech plug relied on the threads of the breech plug AND the drum- if in fact the drum added any type strength. These things I don't know but thought I'd mention them.
And, on a drum without a clean out screw- how would that be cleaned? Just let water run through and then some sort of air blast or pipe cleaners to dry out?

Zimmerstutzen is correct about this being an "early" CVA. Take a look at the picture of the lock and drum. Compare it to the "factory" drum. This one is a replacement. The square end is a dead give-away. The OP didn't replace it, it was done before he acquired the gun. These older CVAs are not difficult to de-breech with a little penetrating oil and occasionally a bit of heat. This is what the gunsmith will do if the OP is unwilling to attempt a repair on his own.

I guess I didn't make myself quite clear enough. He sheared the drum off because it was screwed into the breech plug and not by simply trying to remove the drum which, it turned out, he should have done first. The drum sheared at the joint where it screwed into the breech plug.

And as I clearly stated that is possible either way. The interthreaded breech used in the cva hooked breech guns, has the drum threaded call the way across the bore and is drilled open to the chamber from the muzzle after the breech and drum are installed.

your buddy simply screwed up by not removing the drum first. Something that should be done anyway in nearly all cases. Even if the breech plug was just notched to make way for the drum, as is common with originals, he would have screwed up the gun regardless

This is an interesting subject and all of a sudden I realize I know very little about it. Off hand I thought the drum was far enough ahead (toward the muzzle) of the breech plug that the flat end (with the threads) of the drum came into the bore but since the bore is round- never really thought how everything fits. On a flint you just have the flash hole.
I'm sure other folks have never thought about this as well. What are the various ways the drum is installed? Is part of the breech plug filed flat? Are the ends of the drum contoured? What about the scrapers used to scrap away deposits on the breech plug face? Seems like an idiot question but most folks BUY a percussion rifle and then "move on" to a flint and never actually install a drum. If they built a percussion rifle the drum is already installed or it has a patent breech.

few people bother to consider the shape and configuration of the inside of the breech.

As a general rule of thumb, the breech plug threaded portion is as deep into the barrel as the diameter of the plug threads. So a 5/8 breech plug is normally 5/8 inch from the bore to the very back of the barrel. In the case of my 1853 Pattern Barnet Musketoon, the breech threads were about 3/4 inch and 3/4 inch deep into the barrel. When I removed the breech plug, I could see that a small notch had been filed/ground away where the threads would have blocked the flash channel from the bolster. he same was sometimes done for drums and touch hole liners. Not that it is the best way, but it was done.

Most folks simply assume that the drum is threaded into the barrel just ahead of the face of the breech plug. In the case of the CVA interthreaded drum and breech, the drum goes nearly all the way across, almost to the other side of the breech plug. (Not just into the bore as many assume) The machinists at Ardessa then drill from the muzzle to reach the flash channel, leaving a cone shaped chamber instead of a flat breech face. It was a very strong breeching method, but left things too difficult to take apart and put back together, if ever the need arose.

The small chambers at the breech of TC guns is about an inch deep and 3/8 inch in diameter. with a rounded bottom. I have seen guys remove the touch hole and run a patch down the bore and become alarmed when the patch can't be seen in the touch hole. It simply won't fit into that small chamber on the regular jag.

The pacement of the drum too far forward, means the lock and triggers must be forward as well, ,,or the breech of the barrel must be inlet further to the rear, severely weakening the wrist of the gun.

For the best placement, the drum flash channel should be about fully open to the breech face. Which means cutting a notch for the wall of the drum into the corner of the breech plug.

Well took it in today. Talked to the gun smith for a while figuring out the best options. First he noted that the rifle was not a CVA. He's not sure what it is yet but he said he knew it wasn't a CVA. Didn't explain how he knew. The lock fix should be pretty easy but he was concerned about the barrel. We came to the decision that he would clean it up and then I'd take it shooting. If it's to far off accurate then he could replace the barrel. If not then I'm good to go. So far that's the plan.

Other companies imported guns from the same Spanish maker. It is however exactly the same as the gun in the 1971 and 1974 catalogs.Also back then cva did not stamp their name on everything they sold. Their catalog was more like a miniature of Dixie selling items of other companies as well. Your gun has the classic Maslin copy lock that cva had sold on side locks for thirty years.

i'd be interested in why the smith thinks it is not a cva.

Yes, your gun is a CVA predating the use of the CVA brand name. You will likely find the name "Jukar" or the earlier "Dikar" stamped on the barrel, usually near the muzzle, which would be the barrel manufacturer.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

zimmerstutzen said:

Other companies imported guns from the same Spanish maker. It is however exactly the same as the gun in the 1971 and 1974 catalogs.Also back then cva did not stamp their name on everything they sold. Their catalog was more like a miniature of Dixie selling items of other companies as well. Your gun has the classic Maslin copy lock that cva had sold on side locks for thirty years.

i'd be interested in why the smith thinks it is not a cva.

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I'm curious also as to how he knows. Like said the early ones didn't have CVA stamped on them. I have a couple that I believe are CVAs but got them second hand and no way of knowing for sure with all that were made and sold through other companies back them.
In the long run it doesn't really matter because they were made the same and used the same parts.

A friend of mine had one similar, I thought it might be a cva, or jukar...turned ot to be a pedersoli.