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Hard Ball

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Just asking out of curiosity...
Any yall actively pursuing working on your loading know how with hard ball?
 
Personally I would only use pure lead for muzzleloaders. Save the hard ball or Lyman#2 or wheel weights for center fire pistol or rifle. Did you have a more specific question?
 
I've known a couple guys who figured a harder ball was necessary for critters that bite back but I've seen, either in person or good photos, everything in North America knocked over with pure lead balls. Never felt it necessary to mess with balls hardened up.
 
Lot of guys do it in AK and Canada for moose. From what I've read it was pretty common too, back in the days of muzzleloaders in Africa.

Not a big deal really. They drop from the mold a little bigger than pure lead, so you have to use a little thinner patch. I've fired a bunch and notice no difference in accuracy, no change in POI and no sign that you're shooting anything but pure lead. I've never hunted with them, though I wouldn't hesitate.
 
Many muzzleloaders reach (or miss) their target at subsonic velocities. Hard bullets are more prone to ricochet or bounce back at subsonic velocities. Trust me I have scars to prove it. I have been hit more than a handful of times. Usually they are of little consequence, but why risk it.
just a cautionary note not critisizing.
 
If it can get down to the breach, is properly round and it is strong enough to impact and penetrate flesh it can be used for shooting. Spaniards were known to use iron roundballs when lead was in short supply.

Our lead is pure lead. Back in the day they didn't have the ability to purify to the level we can today. It stands to reason our lead is a bit softer than it used to be, as some of the main contaminants of primative lead are mercury, antimony, tin and nickel, all of which harden up lead.
 
I shoot 30:1 round ball all the time. Same mix as I use in my BPC rifles. [I only hunt with pure lead though.] Accuracy compared with pure lead is the same. Diameter of 30:1 is only a half a thousandth larger than balls cast of pure lead. They seem to load a little tighter but I'm sure that is only because the pure lead balls "squish" a little easier when slapping the ball starter. Cheers Paul
 
I use WW metal for my smoothbore and it does as well as pure lead. I still have loads of WWs so might as well take advantage of it and conserve my soft lead. WW ball works just fine in rifles, too.
 
Patched round balls can be made of pretty hard lead and work just fine. The density will be a bit different from pure lead and the mold will throw a ball of a slightly smaller diameter than if you were using pure lead. But it is not hard to work within these parameters to get good shooting balls. One of our members has even used brass balls and found that he could get them to work quite well. But, if you are using un-patched conicals, you will need to use lead as you can find. These conicals need to engrave into the rifling and if the lead is too hard, it will be nearly impossible to get them into the muzzle.

To achieve maximum accuracy from your rifle, invest a mere $20 in Dutch Schoultz' accuracy system. Go to www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com and order a copy directly from Dutch.
 
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For many years my only source of lead was backing off x-ray films. I didn't know its composition but it was harder than pure lead. I cast .50 cal maxi-balls with it and killed quite a few deer. I never noticed any advantage or disadvantage when using it. I also never could tell that it was harming my barrel.
 
Did your deer "glow" after being hit by them?? :rotf: :v :grin:

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!
 
Spaniards were known to use iron roundballs when lead was in short supply.

Ms. C.

I've heard that rumor, but have never had anybody show where that idea is supported. I know that some "archaeologists" claim they found the oldest known bullet wound from a Spanish firearm in a native skull because of the iron/steel left around the hole in the skull... but they ignore the fact that the Spanish halberd had a butt with a round, iron spike, and would dispatch wounded, prostrate enemies with that spike, by placing it on the skull and applying body weight, twist it free, and move on. Plus, iron musket balls are very expensive, compared to roundish rocks.

LD
 
The only game I would insist on using hard lead on here would be bear -- not black or especially brown. Do NOT use pure lead or soft bullets in any gun for them. Not ball, not conicals, not spitzers, neither slugs nor non-plated buckshot!
 
Alden said:
The only game I would insist on using hard lead on here would be bear -- not black or especially brown. Do NOT use pure lead or soft bullets in any gun for them. Not ball, not conicals, not spitzers, neither slugs nor non-plated buckshot!



What?? :idunno:
 
If I understand the mind of Alden..... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: ..Oh, I lost it there. I didn't think I would ever get through laughing at my own foolishness.....understanding the mind of Alden. That's a good one. :rotf: I got a tremendous laugh out of that and it's going to take the rest of the day for my pants to dry. Anyway, what I think he is saying is that you are going to need a harder lead ball to give deeper penetration on a bear to get into his vitals. A soft lead ball will flatten out too soon and that will decrease its penetration. You will need something like wheel weights to give you the hardness that you will need.

Hey, Alden, did I get that one right? :confused:
 
Perhaps you are right, but you can not disagree that when lead ran out or was unavailable folks turned to other options.
Pewter. Marbles. Rock. Copper.

These make do projectiles may not be optimum but they certainly are part of the history of these guns.

Back on topic: the worry that projectiles harder than soft lead won't work is misplaced. If you have a hard projectile you can use it, just be sure to use a patch ball combo that will go down the barrel for sure. You may loose some accuracy, but in such situations one does what one can.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Spaniards were known to use iron roundballs when lead was in short supply.

Ms. C.

I've heard that rumor, but have never had anybody show where that idea is supported. I know that some "archaeologists" claim they found the oldest known bullet wound from a Spanish firearm in a native skull because of the iron/steel left around the hole in the skull... but they ignore the fact that the Spanish halberd had a butt with a round, iron spike, and would dispatch wounded, prostrate enemies with that spike, by placing it on the skull and applying body weight, twist it free, and move on. Plus, iron musket balls are very expensive, compared to roundish rocks.

LD

I love Spanish pipes. Can't help but wonder if they were playing them in South America.
 
BrownBear said:
Lot of guys do it in AK and Canada for moose. From what I've read it was pretty common too, back in the days of muzzleloaders in Africa.

Not a big deal really. They drop from the mold a little bigger than pure lead, so you have to use a little thinner patch. I've fired a bunch and notice no difference in accuracy, no change in POI and no sign that you're shooting anything but pure lead. I've never hunted with them, though I wouldn't hesitate.

My recollection of "hardened balls" used in MLers by hunters in Africa was that they used on a few % of antimony or tin. Too, its very likey that they were shooting smoothbores, huge powder charges, and getting really close.

Pure lead is ~5bhn, 40-1 lead-tin is ~8.5bhn, 25-1 is ~10bhn. Wheel weights are ~12.5bhn, Lyman #2 is ~15bhn, and linotype is ~22bhn.

Mixes with low antimony and tin content (wheel weights) can be water dropped to increase hardness to ~18bhn. As antimony content goes up, so does the tendancy to be brittle. IMO, wheel weights are pretty good in this regard, and medical isotope nodules (96-3-1) should be excellent AIRCOOLED.

Was it Selous that gave up a rifle in favor of a smooth 10 bore double??...and that would have been considered "light" for the dangerous game. The really big bores (4 bore, 2 bore) were usually singles and ~18#. (perspective)

Ross Seyfried wrote an article about Forsyth rifling in Black Powder Hunting some years back. He describes his .66 Purdy "hitting elk as hard as anything he ever shot them with including his 340Wby, and with just 130gr ffg (1330fps).
 
I can just picture them old African hunters figuring out Brinell hardness and debating it! :rotf:

Lead alloy works. Use it or don't.

History books are for entertainment or reenacting. I'm only reporting the results of hard balls used for moose in Alaska and Canada. You are more than welcome to lecture those guys on how they don't need to do it. :yakyak:

Me? I'd rather go hunting with them and talk moose. :thumbsup:
 
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