-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
a scary story - blown up gun.
- Thread starter mikemeteor
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Status
MeteorMan said:
For one thing the rifle range gets littered with the damned things. For another they are essentially useless with BP unless wiped every shot. I suppose they are OK with smokeless though.
Like the Maxi-ball and a host of other modern constructs they are for people who cannot be bothered to learn how to shoot a traditional ML. The patched RB is apparently just way too complex
for the modern shooter.So they run the local wal-mart or Cabela's etc buy a can of powder at random off the shelf, dump the stuff in jam a sabot in front of it and hit the switch. Then blown off part or all of their (insert body part here) due to not bothering to LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THE FIREARM other than they NEED ONE FOR ML DEER SEASON.
The episode posted here is a poster child type thing for "modern MLing" and separate ML seasons, which I increasingly see as a detriment to the sport of MLing.
Things of this type are really bad for the sport. Had this occurred on a crowded RANGE and some bystander (maybe a 10 year old kid) had been struck in the (insert vital body part here) and killed by a piece of frag THEN what? EVERYONE involved can be sued, the stupid ML shooter, the range (perhaps closed forever) and anyone else the dead persons families lawyer could link to the thing.
But of course this guy undoubtedly thought he was an expert since he owned a ML. Another topic I discussed with another long time maker a couple of months ago.
He was laughing about customers who as soon as the rifle was in their hands knew more about it than he did....
Dan
gl1200a said:
The sabot is an indicator that the guy did not understand what he was doing. Of course it did not matter what was in front of the smokeless powder but that he used sabots proves to me he had just enough knowledge to be dangerous and the result proves this without a shadow of a doubt.
How could ANYONE read ANYTHING about loading or shooting a ML and not find a statement of one sort or another stating that SMOKELESS SHOULD NEVER BE USED? What do you wanna bet the rifle is stamped "Blackpowder Only" right on the barrel? I bet if be bought it new it came with INSTRUCTIONS stating not to use SMOKELESS. Are we to believe that the powder he bought was marked "Blackpowder" or was it marked like this.
A wonderfully accurate powder in a 30-06 BTW. But not suitable for a ML.
Dan
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
We have a local range and before it closed and the State bought it out, is where this story begins.
The fellow who had the range before he closed it did little to nothing for the range. He did absolutely the minimum he could get by with!
Anyway to make a long story short. As we were checking into the range, (my son and myself)! I decided to use the facilities. Now the Men's bathroom has a window that faces the rifle range. While in the bathroom I remember hearing a loud boom. It sounded like someone was shooting a muzzle loader but yet "it sounded different in some way"!
When I came out of the bathroom and we started down the path to rifle range. I hear this boom again. Now it still doesn't sound right for a muzzle loader but could not have been a modern rifle either.
A commotion begins as we are walking to the rifle range and I see a man with blood coming from one hand and his wife is trying to get him to their car.
I walked up the range and see a much similar looking barrel as the one in the pictures that metorman has posted.
The wife came back and we helped her pick-up the pieces and that's when I noticed the powder still siting on the firing line bench. Smokeless powder, I commented too her that this was the wrong kind of powder for a BP rifle.
She said but he had fired twice before it blew up on him!!!!
I am willing to bet that was what I was hearing, as the sound was different from what you expect out of BP rifle.
Why he had fired it twice before it blew up I don't know. The first two shots may have weakened the rifle or perhaps he had upped the amount of powder. I don't know but I do remember hearing those first two shots and thinking to myself, damn that sounds like a cannon going off!
Anyway the result was the same and luckily I think his main injuries were to his hand. It could have been a whole lot worse.
Sometimes I think there ought to be courses offered in BP procedures and other times I feel like you just can't fix stupid!
The fellow who had the range before he closed it did little to nothing for the range. He did absolutely the minimum he could get by with!
Anyway to make a long story short. As we were checking into the range, (my son and myself)! I decided to use the facilities. Now the Men's bathroom has a window that faces the rifle range. While in the bathroom I remember hearing a loud boom. It sounded like someone was shooting a muzzle loader but yet "it sounded different in some way"!
When I came out of the bathroom and we started down the path to rifle range. I hear this boom again. Now it still doesn't sound right for a muzzle loader but could not have been a modern rifle either.
A commotion begins as we are walking to the rifle range and I see a man with blood coming from one hand and his wife is trying to get him to their car.
I walked up the range and see a much similar looking barrel as the one in the pictures that metorman has posted.
The wife came back and we helped her pick-up the pieces and that's when I noticed the powder still siting on the firing line bench. Smokeless powder, I commented too her that this was the wrong kind of powder for a BP rifle.
She said but he had fired twice before it blew up on him!!!!
I am willing to bet that was what I was hearing, as the sound was different from what you expect out of BP rifle.
Why he had fired it twice before it blew up I don't know. The first two shots may have weakened the rifle or perhaps he had upped the amount of powder. I don't know but I do remember hearing those first two shots and thinking to myself, damn that sounds like a cannon going off!
Anyway the result was the same and luckily I think his main injuries were to his hand. It could have been a whole lot worse.
Sometimes I think there ought to be courses offered in BP procedures and other times I feel like you just can't fix stupid!
Member of the "It ain't blowed up yet." crowd. Then it blew up. I love the "yet" part. Not really.
I think too often in today's society that people feel like their personal safety is the responsibility of someone else. They think that surely if they were able to purchase this powder at the store, then it must be safe! I see a general "dumbing down" of the populace. People seem unable to read and comprehend on their own and expect someone else to do it for them. The smokeless powder containers specifically have the word "smokeless" shown prominently on the container. Also, most muzzle loading guns have "blackpowder only" inscribed prominently on the barrel. It seems like it would be pretty hard to confuse the two but apparently it happens. I think that people who know nothing about guns should seek counsel before attempting to shoot them. Luckily, I was raised in a gun shooting family and learned about weapons and safety at a very early age. Unfortunately, others have not been so lucky.
Jeff
Jeff
mikemeteor
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2008
- Messages
- 660
- Reaction score
- 3
Dan Phariss said:
Geez, Dan, you appear to know a lot about this guy.
I never got that sense at all from him.
Quite the opposite, actually.
I guess the world is a simpler place when one size fits all.
/mike millard
I'm trying to figure out where he got "Dupont" powder?
That name hasn't been used on a can of powder for at least a decade,,,
That name hasn't been used on a can of powder for at least a decade,,,
There have been a couple of comments (Dan Phariss for instance) about this guy not knowing what he was doing because he was loading a sabot. The GP Hunter model looks like the regular GPR but has a bbl specifically for conicals and sabot bullets as stated in the following excerpt from the Lyman site.
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.
I agree. Some people think they know someone they never met. Give the guy a break. He learned his lesson. Let it go at that, and that he's OK. Hopefully, someone will see this, and it will keep them from harm.
Intelligence is, "I learned a lesson". Stupidity would be, "I'll get different results next time".
My free advise is worth every cent!
Intelligence is, "I learned a lesson". Stupidity would be, "I'll get different results next time".
My free advise is worth every cent!
MeteorMan said:
Dave Rosenthal
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,470
- Reaction score
- 22
50cal.cliff said:We have a local range and before it closed and the State bought it out, is where this story begins.
The fellow who had the range before he closed it did little to nothing for the range. He did absolutely the minimum he could get by with!
Anyway to make a long story short. As we were checking into the range, (my son and myself)! I decided to use the facilities. Now the Men's bathroom has a window that faces the rifle range. While in the bathroom I remember hearing a loud boom. It sounded like someone was shooting a muzzle loader but yet "it sounded different in some way"!
When I came out of the bathroom and we started down the path to rifle range. I hear this boom again. Now it still doesn't sound right for a muzzle loader but could not have been a modern rifle either.
A commotion begins as we are walking to the rifle range and I see a man with blood coming from one hand and his wife is trying to get him to their car.
I walked up the range and see a much similar looking barrel as the one in the pictures that metorman has posted.
The wife came back and we helped her pick-up the pieces and that's when I noticed the powder still siting on the firing line bench. Smokeless powder, I commented too her that this was the wrong kind of powder for a BP rifle.
She said but he had fired twice before it blew up on him!!!!
I am willing to bet that was what I was hearing, as the sound was different from what you expect out of BP rifle.
Why he had fired it twice before it blew up I don't know. The first two shots may have weakened the rifle or perhaps he had upped the amount of powder. I don't know but I do remember hearing those first two shots and thinking to myself, damn that sounds like a cannon going off!
Anyway the result was the same and luckily I think his main injuries were to his hand. It could have been a whole lot worse.
Sometimes I think there ought to be courses offered in BP procedures and other times I feel like you just can't fix stupid!
Cliff,
There ARE Courses offered in proper Black Powder procedures, and I'm an INSTRUCTOR for such Courses: NRA Basic Muzzle Loading Rifle, NRA Basic Muzzle Loading Pistol, and NRA Basic Muzzle Loading Shotgun. I'm a Certified NRA Instructor AND Chief Range Safety Officer. I've never held an actual class in any of these since NOBODY wants to pay $175- $200 a pop for the 2-day classroom and live firing range & cleaning course. Seems everybody involved in ML is either already an expert or is too cheap to pay for instruction....so take yer pick!
If "Our Man Flint" would have taken the course I teach I guarantee he wouldn't be the subject of the ridicule in this thread!
Dave
NRA Certified Instructor & CRSO
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
Dave, my intention was too relate a story that was almost identical to the story related by Metorman.
However I did not know this fellow nor did I follow-up with him afterword.
Some information I did not put into this story originally. This rifle or what was left of it had a scope on the barrel, or actually the scope was laying beside the barrel, when I picked up the barrel or what was left of it.
Which tells me the fellow that blew it up, well lets just say this probably wasn't his first attempt WITH THIS RIFLE. I would guess that it didn't come with the scope but then again it may have!
That would mean that he had to have gotten some instruction as well as black powder when he used it the first few times, because he managed not to blow it up then!
His wife that came back to pack up his things that day and who we were helping to get all of this guys things said, "he was trying to sight in the scope"!
Oh, the other thing that probably saved him was the gun was in a lead sled. He more than likely only had the one hand on the gun when it blew up, and luckily the breech plug didn't get him!
I was just trying to relate a story that was eerily the same story as the one Metorman had posted!
The other thing about my story was that this guy had fired the gun three times with that powder. The first shot went off while I was still in the parking lot getting my gear out of the truck. The second went off while I was in the bathroom. And the third and nearly fatal shot that blew up the rifle went off as I exited the building toward the range. I heard all three shots, and even though I figured someone was shooting a 50 cal., my second sense told me something was different about the sound I was hearing.It did not sound like the report of a black powder rifle!!!!
I know that there are courses available in BP instruction. But I would guess this fellow may have had some instruction.
However it is like I said, "you can't fix stupid" !
EDIT:
While I was picking up the parts of the gun, the wife said, " I want all parts of that gun as we may be looking at a law suit here". I told her once they found out what powder he was using they were going to lose that one!
So no even afterward they were not going to take responsibility as to what happened! :idunno:
However I did not know this fellow nor did I follow-up with him afterword.
Some information I did not put into this story originally. This rifle or what was left of it had a scope on the barrel, or actually the scope was laying beside the barrel, when I picked up the barrel or what was left of it.
Which tells me the fellow that blew it up, well lets just say this probably wasn't his first attempt WITH THIS RIFLE. I would guess that it didn't come with the scope but then again it may have!
That would mean that he had to have gotten some instruction as well as black powder when he used it the first few times, because he managed not to blow it up then!
His wife that came back to pack up his things that day and who we were helping to get all of this guys things said, "he was trying to sight in the scope"!
Oh, the other thing that probably saved him was the gun was in a lead sled. He more than likely only had the one hand on the gun when it blew up, and luckily the breech plug didn't get him!
I was just trying to relate a story that was eerily the same story as the one Metorman had posted!
The other thing about my story was that this guy had fired the gun three times with that powder. The first shot went off while I was still in the parking lot getting my gear out of the truck. The second went off while I was in the bathroom. And the third and nearly fatal shot that blew up the rifle went off as I exited the building toward the range. I heard all three shots, and even though I figured someone was shooting a 50 cal., my second sense told me something was different about the sound I was hearing.It did not sound like the report of a black powder rifle!!!!
I know that there are courses available in BP instruction. But I would guess this fellow may have had some instruction.
However it is like I said, "you can't fix stupid"
!EDIT:
While I was picking up the parts of the gun, the wife said, " I want all parts of that gun as we may be looking at a law suit here". I told her once they found out what powder he was using they were going to lose that one!
So no even afterward they were not going to take responsibility as to what happened! :idunno:
As has been mentioned several times, sabots had nothing to do with the accident.yakimaman said:
We Do Not Discuss Sabots Here
The shooter admitted to using smokeless powder.
Dave Rosenthal
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,470
- Reaction score
- 22
The additional info you provided makes me feel as if this dude was a lost cause to begin with. It's a shame really, since the guns and the sport suffers a "black eye" due to someone's gross negligence.
Glad you were in the Head when the Pipe Bomb went off, lol! Even more impressed that it took 3 blasts to blow it up. Shows the sturdiness of modern metallurgy, lol!
Thanks for the extra details.
Dave
Glad you were in the Head when the Pipe Bomb went off, lol! Even more impressed that it took 3 blasts to blow it up. Shows the sturdiness of modern metallurgy, lol!
Thanks for the extra details.
Dave
GreyWhiskers
69 Cal.
:hmm: Every one of these type threads turns into.......
I don't think the sturdiness of modern metallurgy had much if anything to do with the barrel withstanding two shots. It could just as easily blown up on the first shot.
The thing is, 3 or 4 grains difference in a load of black powder or one of the synthetic black powders will only change the breech pressure 200-500 pounds per square inch.
With smokeless powder the difference of only a few grains (weight) of powder can change the pressure tens of thousands of pounds per square inch.
For instance, a powder load of 2.3 grains of Red Dot in a .38 Special under a 148 grain lead wad cutter will create a pressure of 14,800psi.
The vast differences in pressure caused by changing the load of smokeless powder is why the folks who do reload modern cartridges are so careful with their powder selections and the powder charges they use.
It also explains why folks who have reloaded cartridges with smokeless powder are so amazed at how we black powder shooters casually talk about changing a powder load 10 or 15 grains like it won't make a major difference.
It would be very easy to have an extra 3+ grains of smokeless powder sneak its way into a crude black powder powder measure so IMO it's entirely possible that one shot might not blow the barrel up but the next one will.
The thing is, 3 or 4 grains difference in a load of black powder or one of the synthetic black powders will only change the breech pressure 200-500 pounds per square inch.
With smokeless powder the difference of only a few grains (weight) of powder can change the pressure tens of thousands of pounds per square inch.
For instance, a powder load of 2.3 grains of Red Dot in a .38 Special under a 148 grain lead wad cutter will create a pressure of 14,800psi.
The vast differences in pressure caused by changing the load of smokeless powder is why the folks who do reload modern cartridges are so careful with their powder selections and the powder charges they use.
It also explains why folks who have reloaded cartridges with smokeless powder are so amazed at how we black powder shooters casually talk about changing a powder load 10 or 15 grains like it won't make a major difference.
It would be very easy to have an extra 3+ grains of smokeless powder sneak its way into a crude black powder powder measure so IMO it's entirely possible that one shot might not blow the barrel up but the next one will.
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
Very true Zonie! I really can't say why it didn't blow on the first two shots but the thing that hung in my mind was the sound of those shots.
When I first got into BP shooting I had a buddy that said often at the first of the season when the deer haven't been harassed they will not bolt after a shot from a BP rifle. I looked at him like oh, sure they won't!
I experienced this very thing when I shot at my first deer with a BP rifle and it did the squat looked around and it and the other four deer it was with went back to feeding. In short I had missed and he was scared at all. The report of a BP rifle has a distinct sound. I think that deer when not pushed often associate it with thunder!
However this rifle that day at the range had a much different sound. It was loud, which I often associate with the sound of BP rifle but it didn't thunder like a BP rifle. It sounded more like a report or the crack of a modern rifle!
Had I made it too the firing line I might have been able to stop this guy! He may not have realized the mistake of smokeless powder.
I love to see them with those infernal unmentionables at the range and they are trying to sight in there scopes and I am consistently out-shooting them with open sights.
And I almost always have at least one that will ask about the rifle and I usually get them to shoot it. Occasionally I get one that says I got to get me one of them,(BP rifles)! One of the first things I tell them that they have use BP in it, NOT SMOKELESS, as it will blow up with smokeless powder!
I love trying to pass on the world of BP to someone who has never been exposed to it!
Anyway when I read this thread and I realized how closely it paralleled what I had seen with my own eyes I had to relate it to everyone!
I think the problem lies in this we are fast becoming a dying breed. Everyone is so caught up in the new fangled in_ _ _ _ _ that they don't have a clue what they are missing until it's too late!
So the next time you are at the range try to make a convert out of the ones that show interest! Once you get them to ask about the BP rifle you are half way there. Get one to shoot and who knows!
When I first got into BP shooting I had a buddy that said often at the first of the season when the deer haven't been harassed they will not bolt after a shot from a BP rifle. I looked at him like oh, sure they won't!
I experienced this very thing when I shot at my first deer with a BP rifle and it did the squat looked around and it and the other four deer it was with went back to feeding. In short I had missed and he was scared at all. The report of a BP rifle has a distinct sound. I think that deer when not pushed often associate it with thunder!
However this rifle that day at the range had a much different sound. It was loud, which I often associate with the sound of BP rifle but it didn't thunder like a BP rifle. It sounded more like a report or the crack of a modern rifle!
Had I made it too the firing line I might have been able to stop this guy! He may not have realized the mistake of smokeless powder.
I love to see them with those infernal unmentionables at the range and they are trying to sight in there scopes and I am consistently out-shooting them with open sights.
And I almost always have at least one that will ask about the rifle and I usually get them to shoot it. Occasionally I get one that says I got to get me one of them,(BP rifles)! One of the first things I tell them that they have use BP in it, NOT SMOKELESS, as it will blow up with smokeless powder!
I love trying to pass on the world of BP to someone who has never been exposed to it!
Anyway when I read this thread and I realized how closely it paralleled what I had seen with my own eyes I had to relate it to everyone!
I think the problem lies in this we are fast becoming a dying breed. Everyone is so caught up in the new fangled in_ _ _ _ _ that they don't have a clue what they are missing until it's too late!
So the next time you are at the range try to make a convert out of the ones that show interest! Once you get them to ask about the BP rifle you are half way there. Get one to shoot and who knows!
I still have a can or three with that label. its around...necchi said:
- Status
