Pedosi Brown Bess ? on lock plate

A friend had just bought a Brown Bess mad by Pedosi and on the lock plate has the date 1762 and a name of GRICE. He told me this is the second pattern version but the date is 1762. I thought the second pattern came out on 1765. Was wondering if Pedosi made a mistake on the date. Or did the 2nd pattern Brown Bess have lock plate date of 1762.

Thank you

It's Pedersoli, not Pedosi

British military guns were made up from parts supplied by various contracters eg lock makers ,sometimes there can be 2 years difference between dates etc on the various parts of a musket and it's pattern date.(overly simple reply because the answer is volumes thick )

Pedersoli's Bess is an amalgam of Bess features that honor the essence of "Bessness" but is in no way a copy of any particular design of Brown Bess. Remember the Bess was the primary arm of the British Army for over 100 years. There were many changes to the basic design.

I imagine that the Pedersoli's design was intended to make it difficult to fake an original.

The Pedersoli's Bess is good, safe, usable and an accurate shooter. It is not a perfectly accurate reproduction.

Many Klatch

Congratulate your friend on his great item and his knowledge.

To expand on answering your question more succinctly if not accurately, yes, the Pedersoli Bess is essentially a 2nd Model with a funky date on the lock. Only the 1st Model would have been available or even prevalent in the F&I and throughout the Rev Wars, respectively.

Thank you

Yeah, the posts above cover it pretty well. If what I found is true, the Short land Pattern came in about 1768 and that unlike the Long Land Pattern, the locks were marked "Tower" or "Dublin" depending on English or Irish Establishment rather than the lock maker's name and date of manufacture as the LLP had. As previously stated, the Pedersoli is a mix of stuff that includes a mismarked lock style, those big, honking oblong ears of wood behind the side panels which had gone out of style with the mid LLP series and a few more minor discrepancies. They're well built, for the most part, just not accurately detailed. Have wondered why some changes haven't been made to bring them into a better accuracy level, probably just cost of making changes.

I think the reason they have never made any changes over the decades is...

...NOBODY REALLY CARES!

Let someone else's equal, but more minutely accurately detailed, product come along at the same prices and I suppose we'll see everyone flock to it instead. Right? In the mean time the Pedersoli Brown Bess is the market-maker, sets the stage, is universally accepted as the state of the art as "imperfect" as it may be for good reason and until further notice.

Yeah, there are some wonderful experts here who know better, and there's always one guy in every company (who's a little off) that makes a point of arguing the issues that would be irrelavent in a slightly out-of-focus photo.

I think it's more meaningful and period correct to stay a little drunk all day and discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

:grin: :thumbsup:

I'm sure what you say is true. I t seemed to me that they could save some on costs not having to do stock work that's not necessary, less stamping on lock plates, etc. Got to figure there'd be a lot more sales and folks standing in line if it was accurate. To say nothing of how much better all of Pedersoli's guns would look if they switched to better wood stains...whine, whine, whine! :haha:

Pedersoli's Bess is an amalgam of Bess features that honor the essence of "Bessness"

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Bingo. :hatsoff:
Long and short of the discussion.
Someone will correct me if this is wrong.
The "Grice" was put on the lock to differentiate it from originals.

Grice is actually the name of the family who's large (Pennsylvania?) gunshop first had these contracted for. It was their patriarch's gun that was copied by the Italians.

That's what an expert told me.

Pedersoli doesn't have to do anything better and anyone who's mind is changed about buying one because of arguable arguments doesn't deserve to have one anyway and I suspect there are other reasons the Bess, and others, get picked on.

It was a free country -- don't buy 'em. Make your own better. Others can start a boycott, hope, and change... LOL

Williams Grice was a Birmingham gunmaker who got a contract from the British ordnance in the mid to late 1750's. I've heard of a couple of his pieces marked "Grice 1758" and "1759". Have never actually heard of an original Bess with a "Grice 1762" marked plate, but, who knows. Grice usually marked "WG" on the barrels of guns with the "Tower" marked plates. Anything's possible since the British LLP Dixie sold in the 1970's had a "Grice 1762" marked lockplate, which would be proper for LLP guns assembled using contract lockplates, pre-1768.

Not sure what that has to do with...

The Grice family Gunshop in Clearfield, PA, is the state's largest and they have been in business for a couple of generations. And that's where an expert told me Old Man Pedersoli collaborated to market the first Bess.

I hope you don't mean to say that facts may not be such, opinions drawn from actual ones may vary, and that they nevertheless are like colons -- everybody has them -- especially when someone who interpreted part of a big book has a micrometer and expresses theirs if they are not just parroting others' latest criticallity from the internet!?

:shocked2:

:wink:

:stir:

Yeah, there are some wonderful experts here who know better, and there's always one guy in every company (who's a little off) that makes a point of arguing the issues that would be irrelavent in a slightly out-of-focus photo.

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RIGHT! Because after all, living history is always done in slightly out-of-focus, still photography! :shocked2:

WAIT..., no it isn't..., it's done live, hence the term "living history"....

Pedersoli makes good shooting guns that are also pretty. They hold up very well when maintained, as there are some that are still going strong after many decades. As they are mass produced, they do have quality control issues from time to time. This is true of many different products out there that are mass produced. The often heard claim that they "hold their value" is a bit spurious, because of the regular appearance of older Bess for sale used... you will only get about 1/2 the price of a new one if you need to suddenly sell off a recently purchased Bess.

No question that if you get one (or even a used Japanese Bess) you will not be turned away at an F&I nor AWI event, and will even be welcome at an 1812 event. I have one myself. I wish I had bought a Pedersoli Charleville when I had the chance 20 years ago. They also are durable, well put together, and shoot well.

The debate about appearance, and it's simply that... appearance... is when people make the ill informed claim that the Pedersoli Bess is an "authentic copy".

Such a debate has zero impact on it's shooting, or the quality of its manufacturing.

LD

As they are mass produced

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There are a couple good Youtube videos about the Pedersoli factory. I was impressed. From what I saw, I would say the work done on Ped guns is not mass produced. They are mostly hand made. Agreed, they are made in a production process by many hands but the work is very skillfully done at each step of the process. Even many of our American gun factories have individuals at various stages hand fitting the parts. I know, the definitions of "mass" and "hand" made are debatable. But that is my take.

Wes/Tex said:

...Anything's possible since the British LLP Dixie sold in the 1970's had a "Grice 1762" marked lockplate...

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this is about the third or fourth time i hear about an "corret" LLP sold by DGW in the 70s.

could anyone provide some detailed pics of such a gun please?

thank you :hatsoff:

ike

Though "correct" may be a relative term, the gun was imported from England and had British black powder proof marks on the barrel, but don't know who the actual maker was...too stupid to have asked a simple question back then I guess! The lock was marked "Grice 1762"(which would have been correct for LLPs) as are the current Pedersoli SLP versions and the traditional crown & GR stampings. It had a 46" barrel, what appeared to be English or at least European walnut stock stained dark, iron ramrod, typical brass fixtures as would have been typical and a .750" bore. An original would have had a true "musket" bore of .775" but hardly a problem. Basically, it would have been a typical late LLP production piece. I have no old Dixie catalogs at present, perhaps one of our posters has one and can get us a copy of the advertising photos. The guns sold for $479 in 1979, which was twice the Italian or Japanese versions of the SLP were then selling for. Trust his helps.

thank you :hatsoff: the (at those days) high price would might be the problem that they don't make them anymore - maybe...

i ran across a shop here in germany. they sell some very good muzzle loaders, both, percussion- and flint-, also match-locks, and both, rifled and smoothbored. why do i tell you this?

well, they sell a musket from an argentina maker by the name of "Osvaldo Gatto".

here is the link to the german dealer.

from its overal length 157cm - it could be a LLP, but the looks, weight by 6KG!! and all the odd ends don't really make it look right....

what do you guys think?

ike

Pretty. Big n heavy.

Senior Gatto cast my 18th C. Cohorn mortar. His nephew tried to sell here in the U.S. based out of Fla. and it was apparently a resounding failure. Didn't actually get the accuterments to my order and he folded the tent and left in the middle of the night...