using triple seven

just getting started, haven't even shot yet, waiting on my molds. I am going to use triple seven until I break the rifle in (.50 GPR). ANy advice on loads would be appreciated.

Well I don't use triple-7 in anything other then the shhh inline. I for one wouldn't have bought any molds until I seen what size ball the rifle likes the best. For target shooting I would start with a .490 or a .495 ball a .015-.018 patch either pre-cut or pillow ticking, and for targets start around 50 grains and work your way up until you find what works best. keep in mind you need around 100 rounds through a GPR or more/less to break the barrel in. My gun likes a .491 ball so I make them myself of course. Good luck..

There is no one right load that anyone can give you for your rifle. Each rifle is different and each will tell you what it wants if you will work at discovering its preferences. This is how you will do it. Before starting to shoot at your targets, you will need to fire two fouling shots into the bank to prepare your bore. Wipe your bore after every shot with a patch dampened with plain old rubbing alcohol. One stroke down, pause for a couple seconds and then one stroke all the way out. No pumping. Then a dry patch, one stroke down and one stroke out. Do this after every shot. Determining the absolute best load for your particular rifle is not as simple as looking it up in a book and shooting away, it is a long process but not one that you have to do all in one day. Those of us who really want to know the best load for our rifle(s), and have more than one rifle, have gone through the process with each and every rifle.

I assume that your mold will cast .490 balls so I recommend a .015 to a .018 patch to start. My lube of choice for me is straight Ballistol. Not a lot, just dampen the patch with it. Start with a charge of 50 grains of powder. Then, shoot three targets of five shots each. Average the size of the three groups, record it in your notebook, and then repeat the experiment changing only the powder charge by increasing 5 grains. Continue to shoot three targets of five shots each from sand bags and average the size of the three groups and record the results in your notebook. You should notice a decreasing group size up to a point and then the groups will start to open up again. The point at which you get your smallest group will be your best powder charge. Now you will need to use that powder charge and repeat the experiment this time changing only the patch thickness. You can start with some .010 patches and work up in thickness until the ball/patch combo will be too tight to go into the barrel. You will again be shooting a series of three targets of five shots each from a sand bag rest for each patch thickness and recording your results in your notebook. You will, at some time, notice that you have gotten your tightest group. That is the patch thickness that your gun wants. If you wish to continue the experiment further, you can repeat the process to discover the lube that your rifle prefers. In my opinion, the big thing is the ball and patch combination. After that, the lube is just fine tuning your rifle's favorite ball/patch combination. Some will disagree and that's okay, they can give you their method. this one is mine and it has proven to work quite well for me.

Sure, this is a lot of experimentation and record keeping (you did keep careful records as you went along in your experiments, didn't you). Documentation of your results as you conduct your experiments is critical. If you have followed my instructions, you will have found a load that is far more accurate than you ever thought possible and far more accurate than you are. Now, go out there and win some matches. :thumbsup:

Bud of mine is real fond of Triple Seven in his GPR 50 capper. From his shooting results, I have to say it's certainly not hurting his performance! :grin: He has real black powder too that he uses in some other guns, but he just likes the T7 in the GPR50.

It took a while to get there though. When the gun was new it had a sharp crown on the muzzle and would cut patches every time. Fixed that (easy), and there were some sharp spots in the bore. He intended to keep shooting until those smoothed out, but got frustrated and put a little square of green Scotch pad over his jag and ran it up and down the bore 50 times. Fixed too.

He's shooting .490 balls cast from my mold, pillow ticking patches he cuts himself (approx .018) and Mink Oil Tallow from Track of the Wolf for lube.

He's been up and down the scale with T7 in both 2f and 3F. Settled on 70 grains of the 3f, as best all around. And you certainly don't want to get into a shooting match with him if there's money on the table! :nono:

The thing to remember about T-7 is that it is more energetic than traditional black powder such as Goex, so you must reduce your loads by 10% at least to get equivalent charges. Also, you need to use only 2f T-7 in a rifle. Start with a 50 grain charge, a .490 RB and .015-.018 lubed patch and shoot three times, swabbing between shots. Increase by 5 grains and repeat, until your groups get nice and tight and you've found what your rifle likes. Don't expect to get the same results using the same charge of real black powder when you switch over. You will also have to clean your rifle after every range session just like you would using any other propellant, it all will cause corrosion no matter what the label says.

Damn, so triple 7 will corrode too? I have reloaded for upwards of 30 years and but only in the last 5 seriously since I started casting my own boolits. I keep good records and find the right combo that works well.
I ordered two lee mold 490 and 495 RB. They're cheap so got both.
Got the triple 7 since I have always hated cleaning after using old corrosive ammo in my milsurp rifles. Do I have to clean as fastidiously as if using black??
Thx to all for putting up with my rookie questions, trust me I have done the same over on other boards in my area of "expertise".

One more dumb question, what patch size works best?

mto7464 said:

Damn, so triple 7 will corrode too? I have reloaded for upwards of 30 years and but only in the last 5 seriously since I started casting my own boolits. I keep good records and find the right combo that works well.
I ordered two lee mold 490 and 495 RB. They're cheap so got both.
Got the triple 7 since I have always hated cleaning after using old corrosive ammo in my milsurp rifles. Do I have to clean as fastidiously as if using black??
Thx to all for putting up with my rookie questions, trust me I have done the same over on other boards in my area of "expertise".

One more dumb question, what patch size works best?

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Sounds like you may want to try Blackhorn 209. I've never used it but it suppose to be super clean and noncorrosive.

mto7464 said:

Damn, so triple 7 will corrode too?
I ordered two lee mold 490 and 495 RB. They're cheap so got both. Got the triple 7 since I have always hated cleaning after using old corrosive ammo in my milsurp rifles. Do I have to clean as fastidiously as if using black?? Thx to all for putting up with my rookie questions, trust me I have done the same over on other boards in my area of "expertise". One more dumb question, what patch size works best?

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It's not the powder itself that will let rust start to form but the by-products of combustion and the salts that are formed that attract water and then start the rust process. Clean up with water with a drop or two of dish soap just like you would when using traditional black powder or any other substitute for that matter, then dry all metal parts and follow with a good rust preventative like Birchwood-Casey Barricade. I have learned that no matter what you use it's always best the reply oil to the bore a day or two after you clean it insures that it's totally protected. Even after shooting muzzle loaders for a few years I find that I can miss a spot or two even when I think that I've thoroughly cleaned and oiled everything so it's worth the peace of mind to put an oiled cleaning patch down the barrel a few days afterwards. I've always gotten the best accuracy using a smaller diameter RB and a thicker patch and in my experience, anything thinner than .010 results in torn patches and big groups. I also think that new barrels are more prone to have sharp rifling that leads to torn/cut patches and that's never good for accuracy. Once I learned how to cut the patch material at the muzzle I've never used pre-cut again. The type of material I buy for that is 100% cotton mattress ticking which measures out to about .018 lightly compressed. I have gotten great results using just olive oil as a lube but am now trying a dry lube consisting of Ballistol and water. If you choose to cut your own patches make sure that the material you use is 100% natural fiber, cotton, linen, etc., as synthetics will melt and leave some serious crud behind that is very, very difficult to remove.

I've never understood people who don't want to clean their guns after they have shot them.

I guess that stems from my upbringing where my dad made a big issue about always clean your rifle. He went on to say it was the only one I would ever get if I didn't keep it spotless.

Anyway, folks need to realize that all muzzleloading powders leave fouling that will absorb water out of the air and the moisture will rust the bore.

Getting back to T7, because it is a "hot" powder it has a tendency to burn patches that have been used to shoot roundballs. This is especially true with large powder loads of it.

IMO, anyone shooting it should stop shooting after 5 shots have been fired so they can go find their shot patches.
If the patches are charred where the ball meets the bore they will either need to change powders, reduce their powder charges or start using (expensive) felt wads or (cheap) corn meal filler between the patch and the powder load.

Personally, I think Trip7 will turn out to be more work than it is worth for you. Ignition can be finicky in a side lock.

Triple7 is definitely corrosive, and will require cleaning soon after each shooting. I really don't think there is any way around that. Even cap residue is corrosive.

I dont have a problem with cleaning after corrosive, I have done it for years with old surplus ammo with no problems, I was just hoping to avoid doing it as often as I break in the rifle shooting every few days or every week end. I was just under the impression that it would not be neccesary with T7, alas I am wrong

dledinger said:

Ignition can be finicky in a side lock.

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Hmmmph. I wonder if you're crossing over with info from flinters. I've been around Triple Seven a lot as it's used by friends, and shot a fair bit of it myself even if I'm not a regular user.

In our collective experience since the stuff first came out, it's very quick and reliable in the ignition department, better by miles than Pyrodex for example.

As for cleaning after firing? Yep, buck up and getterdone. With any propellant in any muzzleloader, much less modern arms. Just part of owning one.

Do I have to clean as fastidiously as if using black??

sounds like you may want to try Blackhorn 209. I've never used it but it suppose to be super clean and noncorrosive. [/quote]

1. Yes you need to clean the rifle after you are done shooting.

2. Blackhorn 209 is made for inline rifles using shotgun primers. Stay with the triple seven in your rifle. I have had real good luck over the years with triple seven 2F in my TC Hawken rifles.

BrownBear said:

dledinger said:

Ignition can be finicky in a side lock.

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Hmmmph. I wonder if you're crossing over with info from flinters.

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No...I just got my first flint and haven't even fired it yet. Perhaps my experiences don't reflect much, or my problems were unrelated to the powder. Good to hear others have had good luck with it.

dledinger said:

...or my problems were unrelated to the powder.

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Interesting to contemplate what might have been causing your issues, and worth pursuing in case you are ever need to use the sub again. One example- I had sincere issues with Lyman nipples and CCI caps, resulting in delayed ignition or fail to fire. Changing to Rem caps solved it instantly with the Lyman nipples, while changing nipples let me shoot just about any cap.

Thanks for the follow-up and feedback.

mto7464 said:

just getting started, haven't even shot yet, waiting on my molds. I am going to use triple seven until I break the rifle in (.50 GPR). ANy advice on loads would be appreciated.

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Good advice to swab between shots with a cleaning patch that is damp but not dripping with alcohol as it will remove a great deal of fouling and make cleaning much easier. Also the advice to switch out the factory Lyman nipple to a stainless steel example is well worth doing as the ones that come on the new rifles are not very good. I prefer the bronze nipples made by Treso and in my opinion it's worth the extra buck or two over the SS examples.
When I first stared out shooting muzzle loaders I actually bought a pound of Swiss to go with the Lyman Trade rifle, but I then got into CAS and it wasn't for another 12 years that I went back to front stuffers. Back then I didn't understand how relatively easy it was to not only get real black powder but clean up after using it. I tried several synthetic black powder brands and really liked Triple 7. If I absolutely could not get traditional black powder (Goex is my favorite) I would go with T-7, for reasons that I've already proved to myself. In that respect, don't mess with 3f granulation T-7 for your rifle. Stick with 2f and you'll be fine but once you put 100 shots through it and get the bore nicely polished you need to get some Goex and see for yourself. For making some cleaning patches, get yourself some cotton flannel at your local fabric store. It makes the best cleaning patches I've ever tried and is much thicker and effective at removing crud then spreading rust preventative than old cut up t-shirts.

dledinger said:

Ignition can be finicky in a side lock.

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Have been shooting T7 in numerous caplocks from .32 cal to 12 Ga for years with nary a problem with ignition...ever. Would never attempt to use it in a flinter, but I've never experienced ignition issues with Remington caps and T7.

I know that any synthetic is frowned upon by many traditionalists, but I have found it to be an exceptional powder choice in percussion guns.

It is my understanding that T-7 is a sugar based propellent and is not as corrosive as holy black. That is if U clean immediately after your shooting session. On the other hand pyrodex is perclorate based and is extremely corrosive and will eat your bore no matter how well U clean after shooting. What say youall?

eaglesnester said:

On the other hand pyrodex is perclorate based and is extremely corrosive and will eat your bore no matter how well U clean after shooting. What say youall?

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Balderdash. :bull:

I have a couple of guns I have fed Pyrodex on and off for many years. No issues. I also I have a couple I got from friends who shot Pyro long before I got them. No issues.

Whoever is telling you that needs a lesson in gun cleaning. Sure it's nasty stuff if you don't clean well. But that doesn't mean they can't be cleaned well enough.

It may be easier to clean than traditional black powder depending on your perspective but the residue left behind will still attract water that, along with the salts will start the bore rusting. All substitutes leave behind fouling that will eventually start the rusting process if not removed, just like charcoal based powder. Whether or not one type leaves behind more or less fouling is a matter for debate but the fact of the matter is that is going to be there after ignition. As I've stated before, even if you don't choose to swab between shots, two alcohol dampened cleaning patches down the bore after your range session will remove a majority of the fouling and it will be that much easier to clean once you get home. Also, I've never experienced the infamous "crud ring" associated with Triple 7 in either my muzzle loaders or when using it in my cowboy action shooting revolvers.