a question of flint quality

M.D. said:

According to Waldorf, true flint is 99 percent quartz and chert found in America is no more than 90 percent quartz. It is considered to be an impure grade of flint.
True flint is usually found in chalk beds in nodule form where as chert is associated with limestone, dolomite, sandstone and shale. It is found in three forms, lenses, nodules and beds. MD

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D.C. is incorrect. I'll debate that with him next time I see him, probably in June.
America is a big place. The quality of flint, whether found in nodule or embedded form, varies greatly.

There is a debate (a very deeply academic one I will add) on various geology and mineral boards as to whether the mineral content or the method of formation should be the determining basis for classification. In some cases, the underlying composition is the same but the presentation is different and in other cases, it is closer to being the other way round. As far as general agreement goes in the 'rock' community, Chert and Flint are both microcrystalline forms of Quartz, with Flint often regarded as a modular form of Chert. Thinking along these lines, it is safe to say that Chert is a form of Quartz but that hardly all Quartz is Chert and that Flint is a form of Chert but that not all Chert is Flint.

Coot said:

There is a debate (a very deeply academic one I will add) on various geology and mineral boards as to whether the mineral content or the method of formation should be the determining basis for classification. In some cases, the underlying composition is the same but the presentation is different and in other cases, it is closer to being the other way round. As far as general agreement goes in the 'rock' community, Chert and Flint are both microcrystalline forms of Quartz, with Flint often regarded as a modular form of Chert. Thinking along these lines, it is safe to say that Chert is a form of Quartz but that hardly all Quartz is Chert and that Flint is a form of Chert but that not all Chert is Flint.

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Who's on first? :wink: :surrender:

Rifleman1776 said:

Coot said:

There is a debate (a very deeply academic one I will add) on various geology and mineral boards as to whether the mineral content or the method of formation should be the determining basis for classification. In some cases, the underlying composition is the same but the presentation is different and in other cases, it is closer to being the other way round. As far as general agreement goes in the 'rock' community, Chert and Flint are both microcrystalline forms of Quartz, with Flint often regarded as a modular form of Chert. Thinking along these lines, it is safe to say that Chert is a form of Quartz but that hardly all Quartz is Chert and that Flint is a form of Chert but that not all Chert is Flint.

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Who's on first? :wink: :surrender:

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Got me. There are more professional journal pages, academic discussions and debates than I can read without drifting offffffffffffffffffffff

....but they both seem to shoot okay in flintlocks. That's usually enough - and about as much as us country boys are able to understand - for us ignernt folks to understand. :rotf:

What was that the Old Mountain Man Said...

"Won't never run outta Flints long as the Earth's made o' Rocks..."?

I suppose one could debate the "flint is chert and chert is flint" as much as one wanted. True, they are both in the same class, it just a matter of quality. However you slice it, English and French flint is better than American flint. It just lasts longer. However, folks have been successfully using American flint for years. No question that it works just fine but I will stick with my statement that English and French flints are better and last longer.

Again, I've had bad experiences with French "amber" flints, BUT perhaps they weren't really such? I mean it's not like they are stamped in tiny letters "product of France". The ones I tried might have been something similar but inferior, sold as an "Amber" flint, hence the poor performance.

I picked up a dozen English flints on Sunday.

LD

French flints were used a great deal by the British military, probably exclusively all through the American Revolution for example.
My locks all spark better with French flints. This was found to be the case in testing detailed in:
http://www.mackinacparks.com/history/index.aspx?l=0,1,4,36,403,432

So if you are re-enacting the revolution for example, French flints in the BB are the only correct choice if my reading is right. Until about 1800 IIRC French flints outnumber British at most British sites in NA.

Dan

One other thing. The flaked British flints we use today were not even being produced prior to 1800 or so.
The British flints prior to about this time were "spall" flints and were shaped differently.

Dan

The origin of gunflints was the strikelight flint used with a piece of steel to start a fire The first gunflints were exactly that. Strikelight flints and the spall gunflints were identical.

It is simply a bulb of percussion knocked off a flint core. The resharpening process is the same as resharpening a flint knife and there are many descriptions on the net on sharpening a dull gunflint.

Civilians would resharpen them many times as they came in large sizes and end up with a small one with a piece of wood at the back to reach out of the cock. Soldiers would replace a dull flint as there was no time in battle to be sharpening up a flint. The small barrels of military cartridges came with a supply of new flints in the barrel.

I live about 2 hours from the French amber flint old military quarries and some are still made and sold at the flint museum there. I am told that some are made from the local flint picked up and then knapped but the chappie who works local flint uses mined flint from several metres down. That is why good French amber flint is expensive as it has to be mined by hand. I suspect the black English flints have a similar situation whereby the best expensive stuff is mined and the cheaper is found on or near the surface.

The period advice was to buy the best and learn to keep on resharpening it. Now that is for spall flints. The 'modern' gunflints are less able to be sharpened as you quickly rum out of flint even if you reverse it.

To make a crude, but useable, spall gunflint take a large chunk of flint. Break an end off to expose a large flat face. Break away the outer white surface with your preferred hammer tool ( I use a copper pipe end, partially filled with lead and then with a hardwood rod glued into it to hold. About 20mm diameter and about 25-30cm long.

With the outer core and the flat face upwards, swing the tool such that it just catches the lip and knocks off a bulb of flint. This will have a rounded thin sharp end and a flat top where you hit it. Keep practicing doing this until you can knock out a bulb of a desired size reliably. Bingo you are done. You are a gunflint knapper. Not a fine one but a practical one. A spall gunflint looks crude and is crude but it works in early locks.

Small fine quality fast locks were made for the later type of flints but a pre or actual Napoleonic age flintlock was made for spall gunflints. When you look at an 18the century military lock they were made for huge ones hitting hammers the size of butter knives. Some spark somewhere was going to hit that huge pile of priming in their teaspoon sized pans. Thats the gunflint for a Brown Bess or French government musket.

Stonewall Creek carries French and English...2 months ago I order 12 of each..yesterday I ordered 50 french honey colored 1X7/8's
Use them on Chambers and t/c locks..
paid 80 bucks for 50.
Prefer the French flints.
Tried the English flints at Track of the Wolf they are just ok.
This is another case where you'll just have to try each.and make the call.

Rich Pierce said:

Stonewall Creek Outfitters has really good English flints. As said above, not all "English" flints are created equal, same is true for any type.

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I had been ordering flints through ToW. I had too many poorly shaped flints from them. I just recently ordered 50 from Stonewall Creek and every one is a keeper. I'd highly recommend them for quality flints.

P.S. ToW is a great company and I order a lot from them...just not flints anymore.

Yeah, I had to go through each of the flints I just ordered from Track and many needed grinding on top to get a flat against the upper cock jaw.
I just made a couple from some black chert or basalt (not sure which it is yet) that seems to spark nearly as good as the Track flints.
I am really enjoying this knapping stuff although very inexperienced at it. Usually make gun flints left from the chips of arrow points I have ruined trying to chip them out making a wrong call with the copper bopper and breaking them in half. :rotf: Ain't as easy as it looks in the books or videos but fascinating as can be. MD

1780 :thumbsup:

So basically, I can find flint along the riverbed, knapp it down, and use it in my flinchlock?

Yep, but I just order my Black English flints from Track...

I live near the great and mighty Nolichucky River. Plenty of flint to be found for free, I'm sure. :hmm:

Finding it may be the easy part.

Knapping it into something that is useable as a gunflint is something entirely different.

Anyone with a burning desire to learn about flints and their making will be interested in the 24 pages devoted to this subject in the book "COLONIAL FRONTIER GUNS" by T.M. Hamilton, PIONEER PRESS, union City, Tennessee (1987).

I'm sure it is out of print but a local library might be able to get a copy to read.

Even after reading it, you may not know how to properly knap a flint but you will have a very good idea of how difficult it can be.

D.C Waldorfs book from TOTW has a section on making gun flints from blades with a diagram or two and what the tools should look like. I've made several already and am a rank amateur so it can't be to hard with a bit of instruction.
Now if I can just find a source of chert here in AK I'll be in business.
The ones I made were of dacite which I'm told is a tougher form of obsidian. MD