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Could it be ?????

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roger fisher

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Ok anyone who has a copy of Madison Grants book "The Kentucky Hunting Pouch" .This is for you. About three months ago at a gunshow in Neb. I bought this knife from a guy for a few dollars.He was selling mostly antique tools and such. I had never seen Grants book before. About two weeks ago I borrowed a copy of the book from a friend and as I was going thru it I came across the photo on page 72 plate 47. The knife in the sheath has an uncanny resemblance to the knife I purchased. I should mention I had previously "cleaned the knife up a little". I polished up the handle just a bit and sharpened the blade. Anyway I showed the knife to a few guys and they all agree its hand built, not mass produced. Could it be???? I know its a long long long shot but the resemblnace is so close it makes me wonder. What say you ?
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I say you should have left it alone. You may have cleaned and sharpened half it's value away. I'll take a look at the book this eve. In your defense, I'm sure you didn't realize it might be the same knife when you did that. It also might not be the same one, but one made by the same maker. Either way, a nice find. congrats.
 
Yea when I cleaned it up I was planning on using it, never thought it could be anything other than an old knife.I wish I knew how to find the wherabouts of the bag in the photo. That could solve the whole mystery real quick.
 
The photo in Grant's book shows part of the knife hilt but none of the blade or bolster. Of what shows, it looks very similar but (and this is based on a smallish black & white photo in the book so not conclusive at all) the star inlay looks just a bit larger and crisper in outline than yours. All that shows of the acorn on your knife is a small bit of the edge of something (acorn? rivet? other?) that is otherwise covered by the sheath in Grant's photo.
 
Coot said:
The photo in Grant's book shows part of the knife hilt but none of the blade or bolster. Of what shows, it looks very similar but (and this is based on a smallish black & white photo in the book so not conclusive at all) the star inlay looks just a bit larger and crisper in outline than yours. All that shows of the acorn on your knife is a small bit of the edge of something (acorn? rivet? other?) that is otherwise covered by the sheath in Grant's photo.
I agree with every thing you've said. I dont think I could argue that it is the knife. Just saying there are enough simalarities to arouse my curiosity. As for the star I think if it were a thin enough inlay a little wear and polish could render it less sharp around the edges. As I said i'm just putting it out there for discussion, I know its most likely not the same knife but mabey the same maker? Mabey ???
 
I definitely could be the same or by the same maker. It looks right. Either way, I'm thinking you found a gem. Anxious to look at the book and make my own judgement. I can't remember what the book said about it, but I will post it.
I have a similar looking knife with poured pewter inlays.
 
Fisher,
I think you have a copy of the knife in Grant's book. The star shown on the knife in the book is much better defined and more uniform. Not unusual for folks to copy what they like.
Mark
 
Gotta agree with Papa - a most likely "modern" repro of the original from Grant's book - the blade is probably one of the Russel Green River sheep skinner blades. There are tons of repros like this made by re-enactor/buckskinners from the 1960's onwards.
If it was an old pre-1900 commercially made product there would be a forged in maker's stamp on the blade. The more modern Green River and other makes of blades have an etched mark that is usually very easily removed.
Still a nice piece - IMO make a sheath for it and use it.
and FWIW - I've collected old knives (mostly trade types and common butchers) for 45+ years and just because they are old doesn't mean they are worth a lot - value depends on several factors including condition, maker, and provenance/history of ownership. Thousands of cheap knives like this style were made during the 19th Century and value is all over the place dependent on the factors I noted.
 
well I will accept the popular opinion that it is a copy, I was just doing some wishful thinking I geuss. Still a nice knife for $12.00 though!Thanks for the feedback guys!!!
 
When I was a kid my mother had an entire set like that! Carving knife, serving spoons and fork. I think they may have actually had pewter bolster, (for lack of a better term) and the handles had the same mark that came off of the bolster that looks like a acorn.
They were her mothers and they lived in Nebr. and before that Iowa!
 
fisher 71 said:
well I will accept the popular opinion that it is a copy, I was just doing some wishful thinking I geuss. Still a nice knife for $12.00 though!Thanks for the feedback guys!!!

You can find knives like that very commonly in antique shops for $2 or $3. Not old-old antique but look good for a lot of periods. And, if bought cheaply, very utilitarian.
 
fisher 71 said:
well I will accept the popular opinion that it is a copy, I was just doing some wishful thinking I geuss. Still a nice knife for $12.00 though!Thanks for the feedback guys!!!


I don't care how old it is, who made it or who may have used it, I like it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Vern
 
Fisher, Claude has the pic I do, the one with the brightly colored beaded sheath. This pic(mine at least) came from Cowen's Auction page, the early American knife section. The sheath was described as having the "...beads cleaned..." The knife was described as being " ...a St. Louis-style trade knife...)
http://www.cowanauctions.com/default.aspx

As far as "value" goes if I had the real authentic first Bowie knife made for Jim Bowie, I'd clean it up, hit the woods and use it. In 2001 dollars my mother and I lost $300,000 in antiques and collectables, plus the house when she was forced against her will into a "nursing" home. I had been collecting things since I was 5, I had the first 8 Spiderman comic books from 1964 at 80 to 100 grand alone in 2012 dollars. At this moment I am working on a knife made from the forward 14 inches of what has been confirmed to have been a late-war blacksmith made broken Confederate cavalry saber. The previous owner had this section of the blade wrapped in a piece of buckskin and had a picture from the 1950s of his father holding the whole weapon, the rear section with handguard amd the broken tip. He had a very delapidated letter authenticating the weapon. It was brought back when hostilities ceased by their ancestor, a Union soldier. The rear section with guard has been missing for some decades. He did not want to sell the picture of his father or the letter as it had his father's signature.At this sale was much in the way of antique furniture and was not interested in a broken sword blade. I gave him one of my flint spear points I made 20 years ago, he gave me the blade and the piece of buckskin, I showed him how he could himself a spear, war club, or dagger from the point, he was very pleased with the point as I was with the blade. It was cleaned and set into a very colorful and aged to a highly polished, well worn appearing piece of white tail antler and will be used. Very well used in the woods, for it's crudity of finish it is still a very good piece of steel. At another barn sale I bought for the horrible price of a dollar a small knife many would call a paring knife. It has pewter rivets and according to Baldwin's list of knife manufacturers was made in the mid 1870s. I am making the sheath for it that will be my neck knife.

So much for "collector's items". "History" is not going to suffer if you or I clean an antique up and use it.

It was made to be used, not "collected".

I do not own an authentic pewter cast bloster-decorated knife, you want part, Injun give you white mans pieces of paper or trade you something Injun has made.

Bones
 
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Claude said:
Google "acorn star handle". Made by Goodell.

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The lower knife with the sheath I would agree is an original Goodell and it comes from a very highly regarded auction site with bonafide experts, but the upper knife IMO no way - too crude - compare the workmanship on the inlays and the bolster between the two. The upper one is also from Ebay - unfortunately a major home for crapola "copies" of "antiques" sold as originals. There can be some good buys there, but unless you REALLY know you're subject buying such items on Ebay is a big risk so caveat emptor. Worthpoint also has several Goodell's listed from Ebay and only one would I consider to be a bonafide original.
Lars Hotham's book "Indian Trade Relics Identification & Values" featured a Goodell with the acorn and star motif and the artifakes began showing up when the values began to rise - from under $10.00 or so to pushing $200.00 (the current bid on the Ebay knife - nice ROI for a fake) - when prices like that occur the scammers go to work big time.

On another forum Bernard Levine, well known knife expert, stated the following regarding a Goodell posted there (unfortunately no pics):
Star handle decorations and/or rivets usually indicated a premium priced line of butcher cutlery
Ditto for diamonds -- e.g. LF&C's Blue Diamond brand.
Trade knives, by contrast, were the least expensive knives made.
This slight disconnect will never deter the fantasizers.
Star handle knives are also advertised as Texas Confederate.
"Tell people that what YOU happen to have is exactly what THEY want... and some of them will believe it."
I don't always agree with Mr. Levine's "conclusions", but in this case he hit the nail on the head.

For those interested in the subject some further info on Goodell by Mr Levine
Goodell pioneered the use of centrifuge-cast pewter bolsters in the late 1860s.
However the deep etched marking on this blade means it is 1880s or later.
Furthermore, the acute angle of the clip point suggests it is even later.
An 1880s clip point on a butcher knife was a right angle.

Any book that calls this an Indian trade relic is not worth the paper it is printed on. Pure fantasy.
David H. Goodell joined the Antrim (NH) shovel company in 1856. But it failed
The company was reorganized under new owners in 1867. Goodell rented space there, began making patent apple peelers, other gadgets.
Nearby Woods Cutlery Co. patented one type of pewter bolster cutlery in 1868 (note the date - which was used by the Ebay dealer - see note below).
Goodell began selling this cutlery under his own name; soon afterwards he acquired Woods.
Goodell Company incorporated in 1875.

In 1981 Goodell was sold to Chicago Cutlery Co.

However he accepted the position of treasurer and bookkeeper with the Antrim Shovel Company which was just starting in 1857. In 1858 he became general agent for the next six years. When the company moved from town, David started manufacturing an apple parer which he had invented. He was very successful until the factory burned down, without insurance. However, he rebuilt the plant and his success continued. In 1870, because he had guaranteed the notes of the Treadwell Company for $50,000 be became bankrupt. Again he went to work and paid off his debts and in 1872 he helped organize the Woods Cutlery Company which he bought out in 1875, and made it a part of his Goodale (sic)& Company.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=dcarlsen&id=I18341

more info about Goodell from a book on the history of Antrim where the knives were produced http://books.google.com/books?id=y...v=onepage&q=Goodell and woods cutlery&f=false

Since Goodell was not involved in the cutlery business until 1872 (prior to that date he made shovels, apple parers, and seed sowers not knives) that 1868 date for the Ebay knife is wrong.



again nothing wrong with the knife per se and I would use it with pride, but based on years of studying the subject in depth it is not an original product of Goodell or any other period maker, but a 20th Century repro/artifake
 
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Nice find Fisher, even if it is not the exact knife in the book, you did find a good one... :thumbsup:
 
Thanks Chuck- I didn't want to rain on anyone's thing but when I saw it I thought repro of a late 1800's knife. Another point was that the bolster was rounded in front rather than dished. Even as a repro I would think the price still made it a good deal.
What about the condition of the blade- it looked pretty good to me to be an original. Any thoughts on that?
Levine's book has some other examples with blades that look like the one's still sold as Russell/Green River knives.
 
Labonte, I have a circle of American Indian friends who sometimes sends me things and advises me on qustions I have. I have a Comanche buddy who advised me that yes, there were copies made and sold or traded as the Comanche/Kiowas valued the bolster and also anything with the star emblem on it. This friend, Daniel, has a knife of his great grandfather's rehandled in longhorn cattle horn because the Kiowa/Comanches revered longhorn cattle the way the other tribes revered the buffalo. It's pewter-poured at butt and bolster and has two pewter stars poured over the iron pins, one showing through. The blade is a very worn and much-sharpened Russell.

Bones
 
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